Message-ID: <8746b310901060546i524a5113r7ffe8a9198c9c8c3@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:46:58 +0100
From: "Mainbox Notif" <rokadeana@...il.com>
To: "Avraham Schneider" <avri.schneider@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: The war in Palestine

Avraham Schneider,

You make it worse:
You use the bible!
This is war! This is not a believe.

I believe in the bible, but we cannot and maynot use a religion when we are
talking about facts!

Don't use the bible to defend yourself.
This is not a game...



2009/1/6 Avraham Schneider <avri.schneider@...il.com>

> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:06 PM, j-f sentier <j.sentiar@...il.com> wrote:
> > Relativisation in this case is neccessary, because the UK took this land
> > from arabians,
> > and gived it to jews mostly because it was
> > supposedly them promised land.
> > Before that maybe not much arabians was living there, but still it was
> them
> > land.
> > The not legit attribution in 1948 of the land to israel was the conflict
> > starter and still today, now excuses have changed, palestinian are
> throwing
> > rocks and old school rockets around the border in israel.
> > What have changed so far ? as i sayed in my first post on this topic,
> israel
> > is very young 61 years old, and have been in war with all of them
> neighbors,
> > also while fighting with them, israel once again has taken more land
> during
> > theses wars.
>
> History time-line (facts)
> 17th-6th C. BCE
>
> c.17th century (BCE) - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - patriarchs of the
> Jewish people and bearers of a belief in one God - settle in the Land
> of Israel. Famine forces Israelites to migrate to Egypt.
> c.13th century (BCE) - Exodus from Egypt: Moses leads Israelites from
> Egypt, followed by 40 years of wandering in the desert.
> Torah, including the Ten Commandments, received at Mount Sinai.
> 13th-12th centuries (BCE) - Israelites settle in the Land of Israel
> c.1020 (BCE) -  Jewish monarchy established; Saul, first king.
> c.1000 (BCE) -  Jerusalem made capital of David's kingdom.
> c.960 (BCE) -   First Temple, the national and spiritual center of the
> Jewish people, built in Jerusalem by King Solomon.
> c. 930 (BCE) -  Divided kingdom: Judah and Israel
> 722-720 (BCE) - Israel crushed by Assyrians; 10 tribes exiled (Ten Lost
> Tribes).
> 586 (BCE)       - Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple
> destroyed; most Jews exiled.
> 538 - 142 (BCE) - Persian and Hellenistic periods
> 538 - 515 (BCE) - Many Jews return from Babylonia; Temple rebuilt.
> 332 (BCE) - Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule.
> 166-160 (BCE) - Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on
> practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
> 142-129 (BCE) - Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans.
> 129-63 (BCE) - Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy.
> 63 (BCE) - Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey.
> 63-4 BCE - Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel; Temple
> in Jerusalem refurbished
> c. 20-33 (CE) - Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth
> 66 (CE) - Jewish revolt against the Romans
> 70 (CE) - Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple.
> 73 (CE) - Last stand of Jews at Masada.
> 132-135 (CE) - Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome.
> 614 (CE) - Persian invasion
> 636-1099 (CE) - Arab rule
> 691 (CE) - On site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, Dome of
> the Rock built by Caliph Abd el-Malik.
> 1099-1291 (CE) - Crusader domination (Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem)
> 1291-1516 (CE) - Mamluk rule
> 1517-1917 (CE) - Ottoman rule
> 1882-1903 (CE) - First Aliya (large-scale immigration), mainly from Russia.
> 1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel,
> Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded.
> 1904-14 (CE) - Second Aliya, mainly from Russia and Poland.
> 1909 (CE) - First kibbutz, Degania, and first modern all-Jewish city,
> Tel Aviv, founded.
> 1917 (CE) - 400 years of Ottoman rule ended by British
> conquest;British Foreign Minister Balfour pledges support for
> establishment of a "Jewish national home in Palestine"
> 1918-48 (CE) - British rule
>
>
> As you can see, it was not taken from Arabs but was given by the
> British, who took it from the Ottomans.
>
> >
> > I can understand why palestinian mothers are telling to theirs sons to
> wear
> > a bomb, and blow themself to kill some israelians, i totally do not
> approve
> > this, but as a mather of fact, i understand the despair for this people
> > (open-mind is a crime ?).
> teaching your kid to strap a bomb against their chest and commit
> suicide while murdering innocent people is much more like child abuse
> than being open-minded if you ask me. I think others here would
> concur.
>
> >
> > Also as i sayed in my first post, another problem of  Israelites is that
> > they think they are elected  by god... and then are superior to any other
> > race/religion, i'm not inventing nothing here.. it's written in the
> Thora.
> >
> > Just this fact  is a fundamental communication problem, for any discution
> > because persons such as Avraham will always overlook the others point of
> > view.
> I think a bigger communication problem is being blind (on purpose) to
> facts.
>
> >
> > I'm not pro-palestinian
> Could have fooled me.
>
> > or pro-israel, the only thing i know is
> > relativisation in such conflict should be always the first thing to do
> > before dumping any crap from your brain.
> Why don't you start then?
>
> >
> > A correction for Avraham:
> > Jews != Israel
> A Jew is a decendent of Avraham, Isac and Jacob on the father side,
> having a Jewish mother.
> Conversion to Judaism is also possible, bud discouraged for reasons I
> will not get into here.
>
> Jacob's name was changed by G-d to Israel - you can find it in the
> Torah - not that I expect or want you to read it.
>
> > Sionists != Jews
> 1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel,
> Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded.
> Zionism was an international political movement that supported the
> reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of
> Israel.
>
>
> >
> > Also you sayed that jews that dont support the state and actions of
> israel,
> > are not real jews, or have lost the believe, this again is propaganda ,
> as
> To clarify - I did not say they are not real Jews.
>
> As for propaganda - see my previous points on the difference between
> facts and propaganda.
>
> > the US government was doing in USA a few years ago, "if you're not for
> the
> > invasion/war in irak/afghanistan, you're not a real american".
> It is obvious that you are also against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
> The reason the US is fighting there is close to the reason why
> Israelis are fighting in Gaza - to ensure peace to their citizens.
> Should I remind you of 9-11?
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2009/1/6 Ed Carp <erc@...ox.com>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:14 AM, j-f sentier <j.sentiar@...il.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "what would you call your lies"
> >> > Which lies ?
> >> > You're tunnel-focused on your point, with no relativisation at all,
> >> > which
> >>
> >> Relativism is for opinions, not for fact.
> >>
> >> > There's two side on a medial, dont forget that, that's why i say
> you're
> >> > doing propaganda, while criticizing the other propaganda.
> >>
> >> No, there's not - the only side is the truth, the facts, which I guess
> >> you choose to label as lies and propaganda.  What was presented is
> >> FACT, not opinion.  How can FACT be relative?
> >
> >
>
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