Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:55:42 +0200
From: "Avraham Schneider" <avri.schneider@...il.com>
To: "Mainbox Notif" <rokadeana@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: The war in Palestine

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Mainbox Notif <rokadeana@...il.com> wrote:
> Avraham Schneider,
>
> You make it worse:
> You use the bible!
> This is war! This is not a believe.
>
> I believe in the bible, but we cannot and maynot use a religion when we are
> talking about facts!
>
> Don't use the bible to defend yourself.
> This is not a game...
I am not talking about beliefs, I am talking about facts.

Those facts happen to be listed in the Torah.

Just look at it as archeological evidence if you prefer.
>
>
>
> 2009/1/6 Avraham Schneider <avri.schneider@...il.com>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:06 PM, j-f sentier <j.sentiar@...il.com> wrote:
>> > Relativisation in this case is neccessary, because the UK took this land
>> > from arabians,
>> > and gived it to jews mostly because it was
>> > supposedly them promised land.
>> > Before that maybe not much arabians was living there, but still it was
>> > them
>> > land.
>> > The not legit attribution in 1948 of the land to israel was the conflict
>> > starter and still today, now excuses have changed, palestinian are
>> > throwing
>> > rocks and old school rockets around the border in israel.
>> > What have changed so far ? as i sayed in my first post on this topic,
>> > israel
>> > is very young 61 years old, and have been in war with all of them
>> > neighbors,
>> > also while fighting with them, israel once again has taken more land
>> > during
>> > theses wars.
>>
>> History time-line (facts)
>> 17th-6th C. BCE
>>
>> c.17th century (BCE) - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - patriarchs of the
>> Jewish people and bearers of a belief in one God - settle in the Land
>> of Israel. Famine forces Israelites to migrate to Egypt.
>> c.13th century (BCE) - Exodus from Egypt: Moses leads Israelites from
>> Egypt, followed by 40 years of wandering in the desert.
>> Torah, including the Ten Commandments, received at Mount Sinai.
>> 13th-12th centuries (BCE) - Israelites settle in the Land of Israel
>> c.1020 (BCE) -  Jewish monarchy established; Saul, first king.
>> c.1000 (BCE) -  Jerusalem made capital of David's kingdom.
>> c.960 (BCE) -   First Temple, the national and spiritual center of the
>> Jewish people, built in Jerusalem by King Solomon.
>> c. 930 (BCE) -  Divided kingdom: Judah and Israel
>> 722-720 (BCE) - Israel crushed by Assyrians; 10 tribes exiled (Ten Lost
>> Tribes).
>> 586 (BCE)       - Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple
>> destroyed; most Jews exiled.
>> 538 - 142 (BCE) - Persian and Hellenistic periods
>> 538 - 515 (BCE) - Many Jews return from Babylonia; Temple rebuilt.
>> 332 (BCE) - Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule.
>> 166-160 (BCE) - Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on
>> practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
>> 142-129 (BCE) - Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans.
>> 129-63 (BCE) - Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy.
>> 63 (BCE) - Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey.
>> 63-4 BCE - Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel; Temple
>> in Jerusalem refurbished
>> c. 20-33 (CE) - Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth
>> 66 (CE) - Jewish revolt against the Romans
>> 70 (CE) - Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple.
>> 73 (CE) - Last stand of Jews at Masada.
>> 132-135 (CE) - Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome.
>> 614 (CE) - Persian invasion
>> 636-1099 (CE) - Arab rule
>> 691 (CE) - On site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, Dome of
>> the Rock built by Caliph Abd el-Malik.
>> 1099-1291 (CE) - Crusader domination (Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem)
>> 1291-1516 (CE) - Mamluk rule
>> 1517-1917 (CE) - Ottoman rule
>> 1882-1903 (CE) - First Aliya (large-scale immigration), mainly from
>> Russia.
>> 1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel,
>> Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded.
>> 1904-14 (CE) - Second Aliya, mainly from Russia and Poland.
>> 1909 (CE) - First kibbutz, Degania, and first modern all-Jewish city,
>> Tel Aviv, founded.
>> 1917 (CE) - 400 years of Ottoman rule ended by British
>> conquest;British Foreign Minister Balfour pledges support for
>> establishment of a "Jewish national home in Palestine"
>> 1918-48 (CE) - British rule
>>
>>
>> As you can see, it was not taken from Arabs but was given by the
>> British, who took it from the Ottomans.
>>
>> >
>> > I can understand why palestinian mothers are telling to theirs sons to
>> > wear
>> > a bomb, and blow themself to kill some israelians, i totally do not
>> > approve
>> > this, but as a mather of fact, i understand the despair for this people
>> > (open-mind is a crime ?).
>> teaching your kid to strap a bomb against their chest and commit
>> suicide while murdering innocent people is much more like child abuse
>> than being open-minded if you ask me. I think others here would
>> concur.
>>
>> >
>> > Also as i sayed in my first post, another problem of  Israelites is that
>> > they think they are elected  by god... and then are superior to any
>> > other
>> > race/religion, i'm not inventing nothing here.. it's written in the
>> > Thora.
>> >
>> > Just this fact  is a fundamental communication problem, for any
>> > discution
>> > because persons such as Avraham will always overlook the others point of
>> > view.
>> I think a bigger communication problem is being blind (on purpose) to
>> facts.
>>
>> >
>> > I'm not pro-palestinian
>> Could have fooled me.
>>
>> > or pro-israel, the only thing i know is
>> > relativisation in such conflict should be always the first thing to do
>> > before dumping any crap from your brain.
>> Why don't you start then?
>>
>> >
>> > A correction for Avraham:
>> > Jews != Israel
>> A Jew is a decendent of Avraham, Isac and Jacob on the father side,
>> having a Jewish mother.
>> Conversion to Judaism is also possible, bud discouraged for reasons I
>> will not get into here.
>>
>> Jacob's name was changed by G-d to Israel - you can find it in the
>> Torah - not that I expect or want you to read it.
>>
>> > Sionists != Jews
>> 1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel,
>> Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded.
>> Zionism was an international political movement that supported the
>> reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of
>> Israel.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Also you sayed that jews that dont support the state and actions of
>> > israel,
>> > are not real jews, or have lost the believe, this again is propaganda ,
>> > as
>> To clarify - I did not say they are not real Jews.
>>
>> As for propaganda - see my previous points on the difference between
>> facts and propaganda.
>>
>> > the US government was doing in USA a few years ago, "if you're not for
>> > the
>> > invasion/war in irak/afghanistan, you're not a real american".
>> It is obvious that you are also against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
>> The reason the US is fighting there is close to the reason why
>> Israelis are fighting in Gaza - to ensure peace to their citizens.
>> Should I remind you of 9-11?
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2009/1/6 Ed Carp <erc@...ox.com>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:14 AM, j-f sentier <j.sentiar@...il.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > "what would you call your lies"
>> >> > Which lies ?
>> >> > You're tunnel-focused on your point, with no relativisation at all,
>> >> > which
>> >>
>> >> Relativism is for opinions, not for fact.
>> >>
>> >> > There's two side on a medial, dont forget that, that's why i say
>> >> > you're
>> >> > doing propaganda, while criticizing the other propaganda.
>> >>
>> >> No, there's not - the only side is the truth, the facts, which I guess
>> >> you choose to label as lies and propaganda.  What was presented is
>> >> FACT, not opinion.  How can FACT be relative?
>> >
>> >
>>
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