Message-ID: <20090312180622.3604bd4f@microvu.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:06:22 -0700
From: Josh Dukes <josh.dukes@...rovu.com>
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: List of Fuzzers

Mr. Mustache,
As an emacs user I naturally have a very large beard, and as such am
inclined to disagree with you slightly. Though I recognize and respect
your facial hair, I do believe that the development of fuzzing
frameworks is a valid pursuit. The use of frameworks developed by
oneself, or one's security group would be a perfectly valid use.
Likewise modification and use of another person's framework I would see
as valid (and potentially fun). I would even suggest that it *might* be
valid to use someone else's fuzzing framework against one's own
applications to verify one's work, or to even generally fuzz in a
non-serious way. But I would generally agree that use of someone else's
fuzzing framework, without any modification or deep understanding of
how it work, for serious research, would be a clear misuse of fuzzing
technology in a generally script-kiddish fashion. 

That said, I see "Which fuzzer on this list will help me find the most
security exploits?" as a similar statement to "Dear leet h4x0rz, plz
hlp m3 h4x0r t0nz o' stuffs. thx!" 

So, Bobby, I don't wish to be rude, but please ask questions that add
more value to the conversation. That is to say, research first and ask
questions when you've exhausted your own resources. You will gain more
knowledge and irritate less people. 

done.

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:58:55 -0600
"Valdis' Mustache" <security.mustache+fd@...il.com> wrote:

> Gabby,
> 
> As a general rule, I am opposed to fuzz. Those that are prebuscent and
> / or lack the appropriate testosterone levels to develop full and
> bushy facial hair should leave matters to the professionals.
> 
> That said, I have been most impressed with the work of the markedly
> hairless Mssr. Pedram Amini and his Sulley Fuzzing Framework, located
> at http://www.fuzzing.org/wp-content/sulley.zip.
> 
> I believe there was a Lebanese gentleman (also notably lacking in
> facial hair) from the NSA who created another popular fuzzing tool,
> but I believe it was primarily only for crashing Java applications and
> developing Python tutorials.
> 
> 
> Your humble servant,
> The vunts ja Valdis
> 
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:47 PM,  <bobby.mugabe@...h.com> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Dear list,
> >
> > Which fuzzer on this list will help me find the most security
> > exploits?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > - -bm
> >
> > On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:37:01 -0500 Jeremy Brown
> > <0xjbrown41@...il.com> wrote:
> >>Don't act like you've gave any constructive advice to anyone in
> >>your life.
> >>
> >>Thanks for trolling, please don't come again.
> >>
> >>On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Pete Licoln
> >><pete.licoln@...il.com> wrote:
> >>> Ok cool, then keep it up Jeremy.
> >>> At least you wont be able to say no one told you.
> >>>
> >>> 2009/3/6 Jeremy Brown <0xjbrown41@...il.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> I consider you a loser, Pete/Julio/Loser.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Pete Licoln
> >><pete.licoln@...il.com> wrote:
> >>>> > Well .. what i say is true.
> >>>> > If you cant argue on the subject then shut the hell up.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > 2009/3/6 Rubén Camarero <rjcamarero@...il.com>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Dont satisfy this idiot with a response, thats what he
> >>likes..
> >>>> >> Everybody
> >>>> >> knows Petie is a troll on every list just use google
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Jeremy Brown
> >><0xjbrown41@...il.com>
> >>>> >> wrote:
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> The reason anyone writes a fuzzer is to find bugs. Those
> >>that I have
> >>>> >>> written are of course for the same purpose as the 101
> >>listed: to find
> >>>> >>> security bugs. Your ideas are as meaningless and unhelpful
> >>as they
> >>>> >>> have been in the past. You have no goal but to troll and
> >>try to make
> >>>> >>> people look like fools, but you are clearly the ignorant
> >>one.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> What have you ever written? Let us see some of your code to
> >>poke fun
> >>>> >>> of. If it is as imperfect as you then we'd have a day of
> >>fun.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> >What's hilarious is that none of them are usefull :)
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> http://www.milw0rm.com/author/1531
> >>>> >>> http://www.milw0rm.com/author/1835
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> 90% of the research above were found by fuzzing, and those
> >>are public.
> >>>> >>> Clearly my fuzzers are useful.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> >You should really learn the protocol you want to fuzz, and
> >>develop a
> >>>> >>> >strategy before you create anything else.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Although mistakes are inevitable, and seeming how the stuff
> >>I write
> >>>> >>> are pretty coherent to the protocol, your statements, once
> >>again, are
> >>>> >>> unjustifiable. The strategy is simple: gather points of
> >>input, fuzz
> >>>> >>> them, and watch for exceptions. Obviously.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> >Every fuzzer you've made use the SAME way to ""fuzz"" for
> >>differents
> >>>> >>> > app/protocol.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Because using a fuzzing oracle is a very good way to
> >>identify security
> >>>> >>> bugs. Throwing random data will surely find lots of
> >>programming
> >>>> >>> errors, but I want a shell.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> > The only change i see is your last fuzzer .. written in a
> >>different
> >>>> >>> > language, but still the same way ...
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Yeah, I wrote it in C, and implemented a fuzzing oracle
> >>that way. I
> >>>> >>> probably put 100 hours into it, and it gave back some nice
> >>return. As
> >>>> >>> like the others.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> So, "what ever your real name is", I will continue to write
> >>fuzzers
> >>>> >>> and exploits. If you comments are meant to bend my attitude
> >>or
> >>>> >>> research rather than to troll, you don't have a chance, so
> >>get on with
> >>>> >>> your life and I will get on with mine. What a conclusion.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Pete Licoln
> >><pete.licoln@...il.com>
> >>>> >>> wrote:
> >>>> >>> > What's hilarious is that none of them are usefull :)
> >>>> >>> > You should really learn the protocol you want to fuzz,
> >>and develop a
> >>>> >>> > strategy before you create anything else.
> >>>> >>> > Every fuzzer you've made use the SAME way to ""fuzz"" for
> >>differents
> >>>> >>> > app/protocol.
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> > The only change i see is your last fuzzer .. written in a
> >>different
> >>>> >>> > language, but still the same way ...
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> > 2009/3/5 Jeremy Brown <0xjbrown41@...il.com>
> >>>> >>> >>
> >>>> >>> >> That is hilarious LOL!
> >>>> >>> >>
> >>>> >>> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Pete Licoln
> >>>> >>> >> <pete.licoln@...il.com>
> >>>> >>> >> wrote:
> >>>> >>> >> > 11 fuzzers matchs for Jeremy Brown on this page LOL !
> >>>> >>> >> >
> >>>> >>> >> > 2009/3/5 Krakow Labs <krakowlabs@...il.com>
> >>>> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >>> >> >> Krakow Labs maintains a current list of security
> >>driven fuzzing
> >>>> >>> >> >> technologies.
> >>>> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >>> >> >> http://www.krakowlabs.com/lof.html
> >>>> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>>> >>> >> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
> >>charter.html
> >>>> >>> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>>> >>> >> >
> >>>> >>> >> >
> >>>> >>> >> >
> >>>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> >> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>>> >>> >> > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
> >>charter.html
> >>>> >>> >> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>>> >>> >> >
> >>>> >>> >>
> >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>>> >>> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
> >>charter.html
> >>>> >>> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>> >
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>>> >>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
> >>charter.html
> >>>> >>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
> >>>> >> Rubén Camarero
> >>>> >> CCNA, CISSP
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>>> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
> >>charter.html
> >>>> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>>> > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
> >>charter.html
> >>>> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >>Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
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> > _______________________________________________
> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/


-- 

Josh Dukes
MicroVu IT Department

_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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