Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:39:41 -0500
From: ArcSighter Elite <arcsighter@...il.com>
To: Josh Dukes <josh.dukes@...rovu.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: List of Fuzzers

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Josh Dukes wrote:
> Mr. Mustache,
> As an emacs user I naturally have a very large beard, and as such am
> inclined to disagree with you slightly. Though I recognize and respect
> your facial hair, I do believe that the development of fuzzing
> frameworks is a valid pursuit. The use of frameworks developed by
> oneself, or one's security group would be a perfectly valid use.
> Likewise modification and use of another person's framework I would see
> as valid (and potentially fun). I would even suggest that it *might* be
> valid to use someone else's fuzzing framework against one's own
> applications to verify one's work, or to even generally fuzz in a
> non-serious way. But I would generally agree that use of someone else's
> fuzzing framework, without any modification or deep understanding of
> how it work, for serious research, would be a clear misuse of fuzzing
> technology in a generally script-kiddish fashion. 
> 
> That said, I see "Which fuzzer on this list will help me find the most
> security exploits?" as a similar statement to "Dear leet h4x0rz, plz
> hlp m3 h4x0r t0nz o' stuffs. thx!" 
> 
> So, Bobby, I don't wish to be rude, but please ask questions that add
> more value to the conversation. That is to say, research first and ask
> questions when you've exhausted your own resources. You will gain more
> knowledge and irritate less people. 
> 
> done.
> 
> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:58:55 -0600
> "Valdis' Mustache" <security.mustache+fd@...il.com> wrote:
> 
>> Gabby,
>>
>> As a general rule, I am opposed to fuzz. Those that are prebuscent and
>> / or lack the appropriate testosterone levels to develop full and
>> bushy facial hair should leave matters to the professionals.
>>
>> That said, I have been most impressed with the work of the markedly
>> hairless Mssr. Pedram Amini and his Sulley Fuzzing Framework, located
>> at http://www.fuzzing.org/wp-content/sulley.zip.
>>
>> I believe there was a Lebanese gentleman (also notably lacking in
>> facial hair) from the NSA who created another popular fuzzing tool,
>> but I believe it was primarily only for crashing Java applications and
>> developing Python tutorials.
>>
>>
>> Your humble servant,
>> The vunts ja Valdis
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:47 PM,  <bobby.mugabe@...h.com> wrote:
> Dear list,
> 
> Which fuzzer on this list will help me find the most security
> exploits?
> 
> Thanks,
> -bm
> 
> On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:37:01 -0500 Jeremy Brown
> <0xjbrown41@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>> Don't act like you've gave any constructive advice to anyone in
>>>>> your life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for trolling, please don't come again.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Pete Licoln
>>>>> <pete.licoln@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Ok cool, then keep it up Jeremy.
>>>>>> At least you wont be able to say no one told you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2009/3/6 Jeremy Brown <0xjbrown41@...il.com>
>>>>>>> I consider you a loser, Pete/Julio/Loser.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Pete Licoln
>>>>> <pete.licoln@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Well .. what i say is true.
>>>>>>>> If you cant argue on the subject then shut the hell up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2009/3/6 Rubén Camarero <rjcamarero@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>> Dont satisfy this idiot with a response, thats what he
>>>>> likes..
>>>>>>>>> Everybody
>>>>>>>>> knows Petie is a troll on every list just use google
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Jeremy Brown
>>>>> <0xjbrown41@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The reason anyone writes a fuzzer is to find bugs. Those
>>>>> that I have
>>>>>>>>>> written are of course for the same purpose as the 101
>>>>> listed: to find
>>>>>>>>>> security bugs. Your ideas are as meaningless and unhelpful
>>>>> as they
>>>>>>>>>> have been in the past. You have no goal but to troll and
>>>>> try to make
>>>>>>>>>> people look like fools, but you are clearly the ignorant
>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>> What have you ever written? Let us see some of your code to
>>>>> poke fun
>>>>>>>>>> of. If it is as imperfect as you then we'd have a day of
>>>>> fun.
>>>>>>>>>>> What's hilarious is that none of them are usefull :)
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.milw0rm.com/author/1531
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.milw0rm.com/author/1835
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 90% of the research above were found by fuzzing, and those
>>>>> are public.
>>>>>>>>>> Clearly my fuzzers are useful.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should really learn the protocol you want to fuzz, and
>>>>> develop a
>>>>>>>>>>> strategy before you create anything else.
>>>>>>>>>> Although mistakes are inevitable, and seeming how the stuff
>>>>> I write
>>>>>>>>>> are pretty coherent to the protocol, your statements, once
>>>>> again, are
>>>>>>>>>> unjustifiable. The strategy is simple: gather points of
>>>>> input, fuzz
>>>>>>>>>> them, and watch for exceptions. Obviously.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Every fuzzer you've made use the SAME way to ""fuzz"" for
>>>>> differents
>>>>>>>>>>> app/protocol.
>>>>>>>>>> Because using a fuzzing oracle is a very good way to
>>>>> identify security
>>>>>>>>>> bugs. Throwing random data will surely find lots of
>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>> errors, but I want a shell.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The only change i see is your last fuzzer .. written in a
>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>> language, but still the same way ...
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I wrote it in C, and implemented a fuzzing oracle
>>>>> that way. I
>>>>>>>>>> probably put 100 hours into it, and it gave back some nice
>>>>> return. As
>>>>>>>>>> like the others.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, "what ever your real name is", I will continue to write
>>>>> fuzzers
>>>>>>>>>> and exploits. If you comments are meant to bend my attitude
>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> research rather than to troll, you don't have a chance, so
>>>>> get on with
>>>>>>>>>> your life and I will get on with mine. What a conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Pete Licoln
>>>>> <pete.licoln@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> What's hilarious is that none of them are usefull :)
>>>>>>>>>>> You should really learn the protocol you want to fuzz,
>>>>> and develop a
>>>>>>>>>>> strategy before you create anything else.
>>>>>>>>>>> Every fuzzer you've made use the SAME way to ""fuzz"" for
>>>>> differents
>>>>>>>>>>> app/protocol.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The only change i see is your last fuzzer .. written in a
>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>> language, but still the same way ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2009/3/5 Jeremy Brown <0xjbrown41@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is hilarious LOL!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Pete Licoln
>>>>>>>>>>>> <pete.licoln@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11 fuzzers matchs for Jeremy Brown on this page LOL !
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2009/3/5 Krakow Labs <krakowlabs@...il.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Krakow Labs maintains a current list of security
>>>>> driven fuzzing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.krakowlabs.com/lof.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
>>>>> charter.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
>>>>> charter.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
>>>>> charter.html
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
>>>>> charter.html
>>>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Rubén Camarero
>>>>>>>>> CCNA, CISSP
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
>>>>> charter.html
>>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-
>>>>> charter.html
>>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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>>>
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/


I totally agree.
Generally speaking, whenever you use an automated tool to DO the work
for you, instead of HELPING you to do it, you have only 1% of success in
your task. When talking about software vulnerability research, I think
it's pretty clear that no tool could give the level of expertise
required to exploit an application. If you don't get a good
understanding on how the application works (and here I'm referring to
source code auditing and reverse engineering), if you don't know which
are the different common patterns found in vulnerable software, if you
don't know what is a security bug and what's a software bug, if you're
unable to assess whether a identified vulnerability can be proven to be
exploitable, etc, then the tool will miss you up instead of helping you,
and IMHO I think this is the case.
Security bugs come from bad cryptographic implementation, insecure
storage, to buffer overflows; even in the case you're using a smart
fuzzer which adds some knowledge (mainly protocol or file formats),
stills you could be missing some applications paths.
Please consider this simple stripped example (BTW, I don't remember much
c++ from source, but it illustrates the example):

int authenticate(char* username, char* password) {
	char* buffer[500];	
	if (checkAuthentication(username, password)) {
		sprintf(buffer, "User %s succesfully logged in", 				username);
		log("%s", buffer);
		// continue with authenticated user
		return 0;
	}

	return 1;
}	


This simple code path would be missed by almost any common fuzzer,
because the BO is in a code path which is conditional to successful
authentication. I think it illustrates the point.
Of course, we can -as usually done- combine it with code coverage and
memory profiling tools, which is a common approach, but still a blackbox
one.
We must see fuzzing as a way to automate tasks, not to do it for us.
We recently saw a paper about the process of identifying Adobe's embeded
 functions and then with that list, and armored with parameters
information,  giving that info to spike (which isn't an intelligent
fuzzer) to perform the remaining work, in that case, as most of them,
the "intelligence" was provided by the human, and the tool automatize it.
So, that was the long answer, the short one: no fuzzer will allow you to
identify/exploit vulns without the knowledge.


Sincerely.
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