Message-ID: <4AF2288B.3000303@propergander.org.uk>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:21:15 +0000
From: mrx <mrx@...pergander.org.uk>
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: How Prosecutors Wiretap Wall Street

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Paul Schmehl wrote:
> --On Wednesday, November 04, 2009 16:36:12 -0600 Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:08:59 CST, Paul Schmehl said:
>>> Please cite one proven instance where surveillance was done on anyone
>>> without a FISA warrant - and lefty blogs filled with hyperbole don't count.
>> It's kind of hard to cite a "proven instance", because all the people who
>> tried were told to stuff it under the "state secrets" strategy:
>>
>> http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/99D0C2963ED15AB288257394007C1
>> F36/$file/0636083.pdf?openelement
>>
>> I suppose a signed letter from the Attorney General saying "We won't do
>> this anymore because we now have a valid FISA warrant" isn't an admission
>> that the program *had* been doing it before.
>>
>> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20060117gonzales_Letter.pdf
>>
>> And apparently, it *was* done, because:
>>
>> "Q General Hayden, I know you're not going to talk about specifics about that,
>> and you say it's been successful. But would it have been as successful -- can
>> you unequivocally say that something has been stopped or there was an imminent
>> attack or you got information through this that you could not have gotten
>> through going to the court?
>>
>> GENERAL HAYDEN: I can say unequivocally, all right, that we have got
>> information through this program that would not otherwise have been available.
>>
>> Q Through the court? Because of the speed that you got it?
>>
>> GENERAL HAYDEN: Yes, because of the speed, because of the procedures, because
>> of the processes and requirements set up in the FISA process, I can say
>> unequivocally that we have used this program in lieu of that and this program
>> has been successful."
>>
>> http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2005/12/print/200512
>> 19-1.html
>>
>> So there you have it - the Attorney General and the Deputy Director of
>> National Intelligence saying flat out "We did this surveillance without a
>> FISA warrant".
>>
>> But I suppose they were both lying through their teeth, and it never happened,
>> and all this stuff on official White House letterhead is forged, and none of
>> them said it.
>>
> 
> No, they weren't lying through their teeth.  But you and millions of other 
> people fail to grasp what they're saying.  The NSA is a *military* agency. 
> It's charter allows it to do *military* surveillance.  The courts have always 
> and routinely exempted that type of surveillance from the requirement of 
> obtaining a warrant because it does not involve criminal justice actions 
> against US citizens.  It involves surveillance of "foreign agents" (the legal 
> term of art for spies) - persons working on behalf of the enemies of the US.
> 
> You and millions of others love to conflate those issues with warrantless 
> surveillance of US citizens for the purpose of obtaining evidence in a criminal 
> investigation and then scream bloody murder about warrantless surveillance and 
> intrusions of our rights.
> 
> The latter is prohibited by law.  The former is permitted by law.  The purpose 
> of the FISA law was to curtail the type of activity that the Nixon 
> administration engaged in, namely the warrantless surveillance of US citizens 
> for the purposes of obtaining evidence in a criminal investigation under the 
> color of "national security", a perversion of the intent of the Constitution.
> 
> The courts have ruled that the primary purpose of the surveillance must be to 
> "spy" on foreign enemies *and* their contacts within our borders.  So long as 
> it complies with those strictures it is legal without a warrant, according to 
> every court ruling that has ever been obtained on the matter.  When it involves 
> a party within the US, a FISA warrant is required.  When it does not involve a 
> party within the borders of the US, **even if it involves a US citizen (see 
> Hamadi), no warrant is required (FISA or otherwise) nor has one ever been 
> required.
> 
> And if you gave more than a second to the topic, you would readily see the 
> stupidity of requiring the military to obtain a warrant to surveil the enemy in 
> a time of war.
> 
> The NSA is not a law enforcement agency and cannot pursue legal action against 
> US citizens.  That's the FBI's role.  There are laws that address what, if any, 
> information that the NSA obtains may be turned over to the FBI.
> 
> You do realize that General Hayden was the director of the NSA when he made 
> those statements, right?  And he was referring to a surveillance program that 
> involved enemies of the US, even some of whom are US citizens?
> 
> That's a far cry from oh gee, they can snoop on my conversations any time they 
> want to without going to the court first.
> 
This snooping on US citizens via illegal wire taps could be tested. Appear to plan a terrorist outrage, engage in telephone conversations
regarding the planting of bombs in shopping malls or the detonation of a fuel tanker at a large sports event. Then sit back an wait for the FBI,
CIA or other law enforcement agency to kick in your door. Of course it could be that monitoring systems currently in place are
searching/listening for certain keywords and once flagged a warrant is then applied for. But whatever the case, if an armed response team kick
down your door at 4:00am, you can be sure your telephone conversations were monitored.

I am personally of the opinion that the law only applies to those that are caught if they are a criminal, and cannot be covered up if they are a
law enforcement officer.

regards
mrx.
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