Message-ID: <46F24CE0B8CD4D65FFF4B32B@Macintosh-2.local>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:17:52 -0600
From: Paul Schmehl <pschmehl_lists@...rr.com>
To: full-disclosure <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Subject: Re: How Prosecutors Wiretap Wall Street

--On November 4, 2009 8:48:41 PM -0600 Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu wrote:

> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:42:37 CST, Paul Schmehl said:
>> You and millions of others love to conflate those issues with
>> warrantless surveillance of US citizens for the purpose of obtaining
>> evidence in a criminal investigation and then scream bloody murder
>> about warrantless surveillance and intrusions of our rights.
>
> OK, so in your opinion we should sit back and accept the legal theory
> that "I'm the President, and as Commander in Chief I can give orders
> contrary to the usual 4th Amendment restrictions" (note carefully that
> there was *NOT* an actual formal declaration of war made - Congress
> merely authorized the use of force. Many constitutional law experts seem
> to think this makes a difference).

The President doesn't need a declaration of war to conduct surveillance on 
the enemies of the US, and foreign agents do not have any 4th amendment 
rights.  Only US citizens do.  Your argument is akin to the stupidity that 
insists that terrorists held in Guantanmo Bay have a Constitutional right 
to counsel, a day in court, etc., etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum.  The 
rest of the world laughs at such idiocy (not to mention never practices 
it.)

>
> So it is OK if as President, he decides to suspend habeus corpus?
>

Foreign agents don't have Constitutional rights.  (Maybe if I repeat this 
enough it will sink in.)

> If it's *not* OK, how do you intend to complain once your corpus can't
> be habeased any more?
>
> "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" -- Thomas Jefferson.
>

Eternal vigilance includes voting, taking the time to understand the 
issues and your rights, and having enough good sense to realize that US 
Constitutional rights do not apply to non-citizens.  Unless you can 
produce a single example of a US citizen who was charged with, indicted 
and convicted of a crime based upon so-called illegal surveillance, your 
argument is nothing more than hyperventilation over boogy men.  Have the 
black helicopters come yet?

> In other words, the time to raise a fuss is *before* they go down the
> slippery slope, not once they're 3/4 of the way down and in an
> uncontrolled slide.
>
> "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and
> carrying a cross." -- Sinclair Lewis, 1935
>

Well Marxism has come to America and millions are marching willingly into 
slavery.  The very idea that the government can force you to buy insurance 
is so anathema to the Constitution that it's stunning anyone would 
consider it, much less listen to Congresspersons stutter and stammer when 
asked where in the Constitution the government is given the right to force 
US citizens to buy anything.

Sinclair Lewis would approve, of course, because he too was a Marxist. 
Marxists *want* people to be enslaved to the government.

> And that's why we raise a fuss.  You may wish to read Naomi Wolf's
> "Fascist America in 10 easy steps":
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment
>
> And that's why we raise a fuss.

Mostly "we" raise a fuss because "we" are profoundly ignorant.

Paul Schmehl, If it isn't already
obvious, my opinions are my own
and not those of my employer.
******************************************
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