Message-ID: <CAG5DJwedK7bR2+hdCnifMjGVkgZ9z2688ZXK6We6tBxtYpbKRg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:22:23 -0800
From: "Zach C." <fxchip@...il.com>
To: Christian Sciberras <uuf6429@...il.com>
Cc: "full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk" <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Subject: Re: when did piracy/theft become expression of
	freedom

Just to be clear, what's been done in the name of intellectual property
protection is fucking ridiculous. I just do not see how getting something
someone put a non-zero value of work and materials into without even so
much as asking or being given permission from the person who made it is
somehow not even at the very least disrespectful. Even if it is "just a
reproduction", it took effort to create, and you must figure it's worth
something or you wouldn't have expended the effort to reproduce it to begin
with.

(Fair use being the main exception there, but fair use usually implies
something distinctive being done to the work, too, as opposed to minor
editing/shitty encoding. Feel free to correct!)

To be honest and realistic, nothing can ever be done to stop copying. Ever.
Nor should it. I'm just saying I consider "there's no harm in it" to be a
myth in most cases. At the core of it, I think copyright's a totally valid
thing to have, if only to stop plagiarism. Its implementation, however...

(I don't see my stance changing in the near future, either. I'm sorry, I'm
kind of rigid in that line of thought and I haven't heard or read anything
yet to adequately address everything.)

Anyway; back to lurking for me. :)
On Jan 30, 2012 12:17 AM, "Christian Sciberras" <uuf6429@...il.com> wrote:

> Uhm, that was a ridiculous situation anyway (@illegal primes).
>
> So lets leave it at 'not necessarily'.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Mike Hale <eyeronic.design@...il.com>wrote:
>
>> Not necessarily.
>>
>> Look at the effects of people posting DeCSS and the HDDVD keys a while
>> back.
>>
>> The industry ended up giving in precisely because people said, en
>> masse, "fuck off".
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 12:05 AM, Christian Sciberras <uuf6429@...il.com>
>> wrote:
>> > No, it follows the fact that vengeance (the "fuck you" Byron mentioned)
>> > isn't fruitful to remedy the situation.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Mike Hale <eyeronic.design@...il.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What you said doesn't follow.
>> >>
>> >> Making a digital copy isn't burning down a business.  The analogy
>> >> linking 'piracy' with theft is ludicrous.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Christian Sciberras <
>> uuf6429@...il.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Byron, you don't protest to the government by burning down
>> 100-year-old
>> >> > business, if you know what I mean...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Byron L. Sonne <
>> byron.sonne@...il.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The thing that makes me laugh about all of this, and one of the key
>> >> >> things I learned from reading Gibbon's Decline & Fall is this:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The number and frequency of laws passed regarding things directly
>> >> >> relates to how widespread these things are, and how they much the
>> laws
>> >> >> are ignored and ineffective. Laws can't prevent a damn thing, they
>> can
>> >> >> only specify remedies. As it is said, "it's only illegal if you get
>> >> >> caught".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The cat is out of the bag and will never be put back in. There's no
>> way
>> >> >> to stop people from 'illegally' copying copyrighted material.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If they somehow managed to require and implement tech so that
>> perfect
>> >> >> digital copies can't be made (unlikely) then people will simply use
>> a
>> >> >> camera to record the video as it plays on the screen. Hey, wait a
>> >> >> minute, that sounds just like that screener I downloaded someone
>> taped
>> >> >> in Russia! ;)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If they manage to require and implement tech so that you can't
>> trade it
>> >> >> over the internet (unlikely) then people will simply trade it on
>> >> >> private
>> >> >> networks or, like we used to do in the old days, via sneakernet.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The problem is that in an attempt to control the dissemination of
>> >> >> copyrighted material (and people are right, artists do have a right
>> to
>> >> >> reap the benefits of their effort) the powers-that-be are stepping
>> over
>> >> >> the line and into territory that impacts our ability to communicate
>> in
>> >> >> the fashion we choose.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It might be fine to try and prevent piracy but in the process of
>> doing
>> >> >> so you are trashing the other desires of people that have nothing
>> to do
>> >> >> with piracy.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm sure if the copyright lobby had their way, they'd require us to
>> >> >> wear
>> >> >> special glasses in order to see our laptop screens, on the
>> assumption
>> >> >> that anything not explicitly licensed was assumed to be unlicensed,
>> and
>> >> >> thus pirated, which we would be blocked from our field of view...
>> and
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> a result, some girl/guy who wants to write a simple freeware text
>> >> >> editor
>> >> >> now has to jump through regulatory hoops and spend money to obtain a
>> >> >> special registration that allows their text editor to display to the
>> >> >> screen. This is a cheesy example, but I think it makes the point.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the guise of 'protecting artists and businesses' what is
>> happening
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> that the powers-that-be are requesting (and too often getting)
>> powers
>> >> >> that allow them to trample on the general idea of freedom of
>> >> >> communications and other things people cherish.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As a result, people are inclined to engage in the very behaviours
>> that
>> >> >> elicited the laws and crackdowns, quite simply, as a way to raise
>> their
>> >> >> middle finger and say "Fuck You".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is when piracy and theft becomes freedom of expression - when
>> it's
>> >> >> done in protest.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> http://www.freebyron.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> >> > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
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