linux-kernel - Re: [patch 00/13] Syslets, "Threadlets", generic AIO support, v3

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Message-ID: <ca9528de0703070402r3d189348t78d27cf3b80b4623@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:02:24 -0300
From:	"Kirk Kuchov" <kirk.kuchov@...il.com>
To:	"Pavel Machek" <pavel@....cz>
Cc:	"Davide Libenzi" <davidel@...ilserver.org>,
	"Evgeniy Polyakov" <johnpol@....mipt.ru>,
	"Ingo Molnar" <mingo@...e.hu>,
	"Eric Dumazet" <dada1@...mosbay.com>,
	"Theodore Tso" <tytso@....edu>,
	"Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	"Ulrich Drepper" <drepper@...hat.com>,
	"Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"Arjan van de Ven" <arjan@...radead.org>,
	"Christoph Hellwig" <hch@...radead.org>,
	"Andrew Morton" <akpm@....com.au>,
	"Alan Cox" <alan@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	"Zach Brown" <zach.brown@...cle.com>,
	"David S. Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
	"Suparna Bhattacharya" <suparna@...ibm.com>,
	"Jens Axboe" <jens.axboe@...cle.com>,
	"Thomas Gleixner" <tglx@...utronix.de>
Subject: Re: [patch 00/13] Syslets, "Threadlets", generic AIO support, v3

On 3/6/07, Pavel Machek <pavel@....cz> wrote:
> > >As for why common abstractions like file are a good thing, think about why
> > >having "/dev/null" is cleaner that having a special plug DEVNULL_FD fd
> > >value to be plugged everywhere,
> >
> > This is a stupid comparaison. By your logic we should also have /dev/stdin,
> > /dev/stdout and /dev/stderr.
>
> Bzzt, wrong. We have them.
>
> pavel@amd:~$ ls -al /dev/std*
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Nov 12  2003 /dev/stderr -> fd/2
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Nov 12  2003 /dev/stdin -> fd/0
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Nov 12  2003 /dev/stdout -> fd/1
> pavel@amd:~$ ls -al /proc/self/fd
> total 0
> dr-x------ 2 pavel users  0 Mar  6 09:18 .
> dr-xr-xr-x 4 pavel users  0 Mar  6 09:18 ..
> lrwx------ 1 pavel users 64 Mar  6 09:18 0 -> /dev/ttyp2
> lrwx------ 1 pavel users 64 Mar  6 09:18 1 -> /dev/ttyp2
> lrwx------ 1 pavel users 64 Mar  6 09:18 2 -> /dev/ttyp2
> lr-x------ 1 pavel users 64 Mar  6 09:18 3 -> /proc/2299/fd
> pavel@amd:~$

I don't believe I'm wasting my time explaining this. They don't exist
as /dev/null, they are just fucking _LINKS_. I could even "ln -s
/proc/self/fd/0 sucker". A real /dev/stdout can/could even exist, but
that's not the point!

It remains a stupid comparison because /dev/stdin/stderr/whatever
"must" be plugged, else how could a process write to stdout/stderr
that it coud'nt open it ? The way things are is not because it's
cleaner to have it as a file but because it's the only sane way.
/dev/null is not a must have, it's mainly used for redirecting
purposes. A sys_nullify(fileno(stdout)) would rule out almost any use
of /dev/null.

> > >As for why common abstractions like file are a good thing, think about why
> > >having "/dev/null" is cleaner that having a special plug DEVNULL_FD fd
> > >value to be plugged everywhere,

> > >But here the list could be almost endless.
> > >And please don't start the, they don't scale or they need heavy file
> > >binding tossfeast. They scale as well as the interface that will receive
> > >them (poll, select, epoll). Heavy file binding what? 100 or so bytes for
> > >the struct file? How many signal/timer fd are you gonna have? Like 100K?
> > >Really moot argument when opposed to the benefit of being compatible with
> > >existing POSIX interfaces and being more Unix friendly.
> >
> > So why the HELL don't we have those yet? Why haven't you designed
> > epoll with those in mind? Why don't you back your claims with patches?
> > (I'm not a kernel developer.)
>
> Either stop flaming kernel developers or become one. It is  that
> simple.
>

If I were to become a kernel developer I would stick with FreeBSD. At
least they have kqueue for about seven years now.

--
Kirk Kuchov
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