Message-ID: <4724DA20.1010609@imap.cc>
Date:	Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:51:12 +0100
From:	Tilman Schmidt <tilman@...p.cc>
To:	Adrian Bunk <bunk@...nel.org>
CC:	Greg KH <greg@...ah.com>, Simon Arlott <simon@...e.lp0.eu>,
	Chris Wright <chrisw@...s-sol.org>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org,
	Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@...putergmbh.de>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Andreas Gruenbacher <agruen@...e.de>,
	Thomas Fricaccia <thomas_fricacci@...oo.com>,
	Jeremy Fitzhardinge <jeremy@...p.org>,
	James Morris <jmorris@...ei.org>,
	Crispin Cowan <crispin@...spincowan.com>,
	Giacomo Catenazzi <cate@...ian.org>,
	Alan Cox <alan@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Subject: Re: eradicating out of tree modules

Am 28.10.2007 02:55 schrieb Adrian Bunk:
> Justifying anything with code with not GPL compatible licences has zero 
> relevance here.
> 
> And there's value in making life harder for such modules with 
> questionable legality. As an example, consider people who experienced 
> crashes of "the Linux kernel" caused by some binary-only driver.
> Not that uncommon e.g. with some graphics drivers.
> This harms the reputation of Linux as being stable.

You are mixing up several distinct categories here: "out of tree"
!= "non-GPL" != "proprietary" != "of questionable legality" !=
"binary-only" != "causing kernel crashes".

> The solution is not to support proprietary drivers, the solution is to 
> get open source replacements.

So how do you propose to "get" those replacements? And what shall
users do during the time this "getting" may take?

> If it's low quality code doing something useful - well, how many hundred 
> people are on Greg's list only waiting for some driver they could write?

No idea. Obviously not enough to actually solve the problem.
What solution do you propose?

>> [D]o you think the world would
>> be a better place if all the existing out-of-tree modules
>> just ceased to exist, without any replacement?
> 
> With your "without any replacement" you needlessly excluded the 
> reasonable solution:
> 
> The solution is that someone other than the author either takes the 
> existing external code or rewrites it from scratch, submits it for 
> inclusion into the kernel, and maintains it there.

My "without any replacement" is just a description of reality.
All current external code I am aware of continues to exist only
because there is no in-kernel replacement.

Again: how do you propose to bring that solution of yours to pass,
how long do you think it will take, and what do you propose current
users of out-of-tree modules do in the meantime?

Without reasonable answers to these questions, your proposed
solution itself hardly qualifies as reasonable.

> Let me repeat that Greg has said he has hundreds of volunteers for such 
> tasks.

Even with hundreds of volunteers, your proposed solution of just
rewriting *all* external code in a way fit for inclusion into the
kernel is an unachievable goal. Just look at the list on
http://linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/OutOfTreeDrivers
and try to answer why each of them is still out of tree.
Hint: In most cases it's neither out of malice nor stupidity on
the authors' part.

Of course in-tree code is always better than out-of-tree code. But
I maintain there will always be out-of-tree code (modules, drivers,
whatever) that fills a real need not (though hopefully, just not
yet) satisfied by any in-tree code. All I'm asking for is that you
take a pragmatic stance with regard to that: not going to any great
lengths to support it, but acknowledging its existence and
legitimacy - and not inciting to deliberately break it.

Thanks,
Tilman

-- 
Tilman Schmidt                          E-Mail: tilman@...p.cc
Bonn, Germany
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