linux-kernel - Re: [ltt-dev] [RFC git tree] Userspace RCU (urcu) for Linux (repost)

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <20090212203504.GJ6759@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Date:	Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:35:04 -0800
From:	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>
To:	Mathieu Desnoyers <compudj@...stal.dyndns.org>
Cc:	ltt-dev@...ts.casi.polymtl.ca, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Bryan Wu <cooloney@...nel.org>,
	uclinux-dist-devel@...ckfin.uclinux.org
Subject: Re: [ltt-dev] [RFC git tree] Userspace RCU (urcu) for Linux
	(repost)

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 03:09:37PM -0500, Mathieu Desnoyers wrote:
> * Paul E. McKenney (paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 02:29:41PM -0500, Mathieu Desnoyers wrote:
> > > 
> > > * Paul E. McKenney (paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > > diff --git a/urcu.c b/urcu.c
> > > > index f2aae34..a696439 100644
> > > > --- a/urcu.c
> > > > +++ b/urcu.c
> > > > @@ -99,7 +99,8 @@ static void force_mb_single_thread(pthread_t tid)
> > > >  	 * BUSY-LOOP.
> > > >  	 */
> > > >  	while (sig_done < 1)
> > > > -		smp_rmb();	/* ensure we re-read sig-done */
> > > > +		barrier();	/* ensure compiler re-reads sig-done */
> > > > +				/* cache coherence guarantees CPU re-read. */
> > > 
> > > OK, this is where I think our points of view differ. Please refer to
> > > http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/18/299.
> > > 
> > > Basically, cpu_relax() used in the Linux kernel has an
> > > architecture-specific implementation which *could* include a smp_rmb()
> > > if the architecture doesn't notice writes done by other CPUs. I think
> > > Blackfin is the only architecture currently supported by the Linux
> > > kernel which defines cpu_relax() as a smp_mb(), because it does not have
> > > cache coherency.
> > > 
> > > Therefore, I propose that we create a memory barrier macro which is
> > > defined as a 
> > >   barrier()   when the cpu has cache coherency
> > >   cache flush when the cpu does not have cache coherency and is
> > >               compiled with smp support.
> > > 
> > > We could call that
> > > 
> > >   smp_wmc() (for memory-coherency or memory commit)
> > >   smp_rmc()
> > >   smp_mc()
> > > 
> > > It would be a good way to identify the location where data exchange
> > > between memory and the local cache are is required in the algorithm.
> > > What do you think ?
> > 
> > Actually the best way to do this would be:
> > 
> > 	while (ACCESS_ONCE(sig_done) < 1)
> > 		continue;
> > 
> 
> Interesting idea. Maybe we should define an accessor for the data write
> too ?

I like having just ACCESS_ONCE(), but I suppose I could live with
separate LOAD_ONCE() and STORE_ONCE() primitives.

But I am not yet convinced that this is needed, as I am not aware of any
architecture that would buffer writes forever.  (Doesn't mean that there
isn't one, but it does not make sense to complicate the API just on
speculation.)

> But I suspect that in a lot of situations, what we will really want is
> to do a bunch of read/writes, and only at a particular point do the
> cache flush.

That could happen, and in fact is why the separate
smp_read_barrier_depends() primitive exists.  But I -strongly-
discourage its use -- code using rcu_dereference() is -much- easier to
read and understand.  So if the series of reads/writes was short, I
would say to just bite the bullet and take the multiple primitives.

If nothing else, this might encourage hardware manufacturers to do the
right thing.  ;-)

> > If ACCESS_ONCE() needs to be made architecture-specific to make this
> > really work on Blackfin, we should make that change.  And, now that
> > you mention it, I have heard rumors that other CPU families can violate
> > cache coherence in some circumstances.
> > 
> > So perhaps ACCESS_ONCE() becomes:
> > 
> > #ifdef CONFIG_ARCH_CACHE_COHERENT
> > #define ACCESS_ONCE(x) (*(volatile typeof(x) *)&(x))
> > #else /* #ifdef CONFIG_ARCH_CACHE_COHERENT */
> > #define ACCESS_ONCE(x)     ({ \
> > 				typeof(x) _________x1; \
> > 				_________x1 = (*(volatile typeof(x) *)&(x)); \
> > 				cpu_relax(); \
> 
> I don't think cpu_relax would be the correct primitive to use here. We
> definitely don't want a "rep; nop;" or anything like this which _slows
> down_ the access. It's just a different goal we are pursuing. So using
> something like smp_rmc within the ACCESS_ONCE() macro in this case as I
> proposed in the other mail still seems to make sense.

Well, x86 would have CONFIG_ARCH_CACHE_COHERENT, so it would instead
use the old definition -- so no "rep; nop;" in any case.

Probably whatever takes the place of cpu_relax() is arch-dependent
anyway.

							Thanx, Paul

> Mathieu
> 
> > 				(_________x1); \
> > 				})
> > #endif /* #else #ifdef CONFIG_ARCH_CACHE_COHERENT */
> > 
> > Seem reasonable?
> > 
> > 							Thanx, Paul
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Mathieu Desnoyers
> OpenPGP key fingerprint: 8CD5 52C3 8E3C 4140 715F  BA06 3F25 A8FE 3BAE 9A68
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/