Message-ID: <4A2D47C1.5020302@redhat.com>
Date:	Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:17:53 +0300
From:	Izik Eidus <ieidus@...hat.com>
To:	Hugh Dickins <hugh.dickins@...cali.co.uk>
CC:	aarcange@...hat.com, akpm@...ux-foundation.org,
	nickpiggin@...oo.com.au, chrisw@...hat.com, riel@...hat.com,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-mm@...ck.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/4] RFC - ksm api change into madvise

Hugh Dickins wrote:
> On Thu, 14 May 2009, Izik Eidus wrote:
>
>   
>> This is comment request for ksm api changes.
>> The following patchs move the api to use madvise instead of ioctls.
>>     
>
> Thanks a lot for doing this.
>
> I'm afraid more than three weeks have gone past, and the 2.6.31
> merge window is almost upon us, and you haven't even got a comment
> out of me: I apologize for that.
>
> Although my (lack of) response is indistinguishable from a conspiracy
> to keep KSM out of the kernel, I beg to assure you that's not the case.
> I do want KSM to go in - though I never shared Andrew's optimism that it
> is 2.6.31 material: I've too long a list of notes/doubts on the existing
> implementation, which I've not had time to expand upon to you; but I
> don't think there are any killer issues, we should be able to work
> things out as 2.6.31 goes through its -rcs, and aim for 2.6.32.
>
> But let's get this change of interface sorted out first.
>   

Agree.

> I remain convinced that it's right to go the madvise() route,
> though I don't necessarily like the details in your patches.
> And I've come to the conclusion that the only way I can force
> myself to contribute constructively, is to start from these
> patches, and shift things around until it's as I think it
> should be, then see what you think of the result.
>   

Sound perfect way to go.

> I notice that you chose to integrate fully (though not fully enough)
> with vmas, adding a VM_MERGEABLE flag.  Fine, that's probably going
> to be safest in the end, and I'll follow you; but it is further than
> I was necessarily asking you to go - it might have been okay to use
> the madvise() interface, but just to declare areas of address space
> (not necessarily backed by mappings) to ksm.c, as you did via /dev/ksm.
> But it's fairly likely that if you had stayed with that, it would have
> proved problematic later, so let's go forward with the full integration
> with vmas.
>
>   
>> Before i will describe the patchs, i want to note that i rewrote this
>> patch seires alot of times, all the other methods that i have tried had some
>> fandumatel issues with them.
>> The current implemantion does have some issues with it, but i belive they are
>> all solveable and better than the other ways to do it.
>> If you feel you have better way how to do it, please tell me :).
>>
>> Ok when we changed ksm to use madvise instead of ioctls we wanted to keep
>> the following rules:
>>
>> Not to increase the host memory usage if ksm is not being used (even when it
>> is compiled), this mean not to add fields into mm_struct / vm_area_struct...
>>
>> Not to effect the system performence with notifiers that will have to block
>> while ksm code is running under some lock - ksm is helper, it should do it
>> work quitely, - this why i dropped patch that i did that add mmu notifiers
>> support inside ksm.c and recived notifications from the MM (for example
>> when vma is destroyed (invalidate_range...)
>>
>> Not to change the MM logic.
>>
>> Trying to touch as less code as we can outisde ksm.c
>>     
>
> These are well-intentioned goals, and thank you for making the effort
> to follow them; but I'm probably going to depart from them.  I'd
> rather we put in what's necessary and appropriate, and then cut
> that down if necessary.
>   

That the way to go, i just didnt want to scare anyone (it was obiouse to 
me that it is needed, just wanted you to say it is needed)

>   
>> Taking into account all this rules, the end result that we have came with is:
>> mmlist is now not used only by swapoff, but by ksm as well, this mean that
>> each time you call to madvise for to set vma as MERGEABLE, madvise will check
>> if the mm_struct is inside the mmlist and will insert it in case it isnt.
>> It is belived that it is better to hurt little bit the performence of swapoff
>> than adding another list into the mm_struct.
>>     
>
> That was a perfectly sensible thing for you to do, given your rules
> above; but I don't really like the result, and think it'll be clearer
> to have your own list.  Whether by mm or by vma, I've not yet decided:
> by mm won't add enough #idef CONFIG_KSM bloat to worry about; by vma,
> we might be able to reuse some prio_tree fields, I've not checked yet.
>
>   
>> One issue that should be note is: after mm_struct is going into the mmlist, it
>> wont be kicked from it until the procsses is die (even if there are no more
>> VM_MERGEABLE vmas), this doesnt mean memory is wasted, but it does mean ksm
>> will spend little more time in doing cur = cur->next if(...).
>>
>> Another issue is: when procsess is die, ksm will have to find (when scanning)
>> that its mm_users == 1 and then do mmput(), this mean that there might be dealy
>> from the time that someone do kill until the mm is really free -
>> i am open for suggestions on how to improve this...
>>     
>
> You've resisted putting in the callbacks you need.  I think they were
> always (i.e. even when using /dev/ksm) necessary, but should become
> more obvious now we have this tighter integration with mm's vmas.
>
> You seem to have no callback in fork: doesn't that mean that KSM
> pages get into mms of which mm/ksm.c has no knowledge?  
What you mean by this?, should the vma flags be copyed into the child 
and therefore ksm will scan the vma?
(only thing i have to check is: maybe the process itself wont go into 
the mmlist, and therefore ksm wont know about it)

> You had
> no callback in mremap move: doesn't that mean that KSM pages could
> be moved into areas which mm/ksm.c never tracked?  Though that's
> probably no issue now we move over to vmas: they should now travel
> with their VM flag.  You have no callback in unmap: doesn't that
> mean that KSM never knows when its pages have gone away?
>   

Yes, Adding all this callbacks would make ksm much more happy, Again, i 
didnt want to scare anyone...

> (Closing the /dev/ksm fd used to clean up some of this, in the
> end; but the lifetime of the fd can be so different from that of
> the mapped area, I've felt very unsafe with that technique - a good
> technique when you're trying to sneak in special handling for your
> special driver, but not a good technique once you go to mainline.)
>
> I haven't worked out the full consequences of these lost pages:
> perhaps it's no worse than that you could never properly enforce
> your ksm_thread_max_kernel_pages quota.
>   

You mean the shared pages outside the stable tree comment?

>   
>> (when someone do echo 0 > /sys/kernel/mm/ksm/run ksm will throw away all the
>> memory, so condtion when the memory wont ever be free wont happen)
>>
>>
>> Another important thing is: this is request for comment, i still not sure few
>> things that we have made here are totaly safe:
>> (the mmlist sync with drain_mmlist, and the handle_vmas() function in madvise,
>> the logic inside ksm for searching the next virtual address on the vmas,
>> and so on...)
>> The main purpuse of this is to ask if the new interface is what you guys
>> want..., and if you like the impelmantion desgin.
>>     
>
> It's in the right direction.  But it would be silly for me to start
> criticizing your details now: I need to try doing the same, that will
> force me to think deeply enough about it, and I may then be led to
> the same decisions as you made.
>
>   
>> (I have added option to scan closed support applications as well)
>>     
>
> That's a nice detail that I'll find very useful for testing,
> but we might want to hold it back longer than the rest.  I just get
> naturally more cautious when we consider interfaces for doing things
> to other processes, and want to spend even longer over it.
>
>   
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Izik Eidus (4):
>>   madvice: add MADV_SHAREABLE and MADV_UNSHAREABLE calls.
>>     
>
> I didn't understand why you went over to VM_MERGEABLE but stuck
> with MADV_SHAREABLE: there's a confusing mix of shareables and
> mergeables, I'll head for mergeables throughout, though keep to "KSM".
>
>   
>>   mmlist: share mmlist with ksm.
>>   ksm: change ksm api to use madvise instead of ioctls.
>>   ksm: add support for scanning procsses that were not modifided to use
>>     ksm
>>     
>
> While I'm being communicative, let me mention two things,
> not related to this RFC patchset, but to what's currently in mmotm.
>
> I've a bugfix patch to scan_get_next_index(), I'll send that to you
>   

Thanks.


> in a few moments.
>
> And a question on your page_wrprotect() addition to mm/rmap.c: though
> it may contain some important checks (I'm thinking of the get_user_pages
> protection), isn't it essentially redundant, and should be removed from
> the patchset?  If we have a private page which is mapped into more than
> the one address space by which we arrive at it, then, quite independent
> of KSM, it needs to be write-protected already to prevent mods in one
> address space leaking into another - doesn't it?  So I see no need for
> the rmap'ped write-protection there, just make the checks and write
> protect the pte you have in ksm.c.  Or am I missing something?
>   

Ok, so we have here 2 cases for ksm:
1:
    When the page is anonymous and is mapped readonly beteween serveal 
processes:
         for this you say we shouldnt walk over the rmap and try to 
writeprotect what is already writeprtected...

2:
   When the page is anonymous and is mapped write by just one process:
       for this you say it is better to handle it directly from inside 
ksm beacuse we already know
       the virtual address mapping of this page?

       so about this: you are right about the fact that we might dont 
have to walk over the rmap of the page for pages with mapcount 1
       but isnt it cleaner to deal it inside rmap.c?
       another thing,  get_user_pages() protection is needed even in 
that case, beacuse get_user_pages_fast is lockless, so odirect
       can run under our legs after we write protecting the page.


      anyway, nothing critical, i dont mind to move 
page_write_protect_one() into ksm.c, i still think get_user_pages 
protection is needed.


Thanks alot for your time.
> Hugh
>   

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