linux-kernel - Re: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 6)

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Message-ID: <87k4r69k61.fsf@deeprootsystems.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 May 2010 15:45:58 -0700
From:	Kevin Hilman <khilman@...prootsystems.com>
To:	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl>
Cc:	Tony Lindgren <tony@...mide.com>, Matthew Garrett <mjg@...hat.com>,
	Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>,
	Paul Walmsley <paul@...an.com>,
	Arve Hjønnevåg <arve@...roid.com>,
	"Linux-pm mailing list" <linux-pm@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
	Kernel development list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>, Oleg Nesterov <oleg@...hat.com>,
	magnus.damm@...il.com, "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@....edu>,
	mark gross <mgross@...ux.intel.com>,
	Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...radead.org>,
	Geoff Smith <geoffx.smith@...el.com>,
	Brian Swetland <swetland@...gle.com>,
	Benoît Cousson <b-cousson@...com>,
	linux-omap@...r.kernel.org, Vitaly Wool <vitalywool@...il.com>,
	Mark Brown <broonie@...nsource.wolfsonmicro.com>,
	Liam Girdwood <lrg@...mlogic.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 6)

"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl> writes:

> On Friday 14 May 2010, Kevin Hilman wrote:
>> Kevin Hilman <khilman@...prootsystems.com> writes:
>> 
>> > "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl> writes:
>> >
>> >> On Thursday 13 May 2010, Tony Lindgren wrote:
>> >>> * Rafael J. Wysocki <rjw@...k.pl> [100513 14:16]:
>> >
>> > [...]
>> >
>> >>>  
>> >>> > It solves a practical issue that _at_ _the_ _moment_ cannot be solved
>> >>> > differently, while there's a growing number of out-of-tree drivers depending
>> >>> > on this framework.  We need those drivers in and because we don't have any
>> >>> > viable alternative at hand, we have no good reason to reject it.
>> >>> 
>> >>> Nothing is preventing merging the drivers can be merged without
>> >>> these calls.
>> >>
>> >> And yet, there _is_ a growing nuber of drivers that don't get merge because
>> >> of that.  That's _reality_.  Are you going to discuss with facts, or what?
>> >
>> > It may be reality, but IMO, "preventing other drivers" isn't a good
>> > *technical* argument for merging a feature.  It feels like these "for
>> > the 'good' of the community" arguments are being used to trump the
>> > technical arguments.  Maybe we need to keep the separate.
>> 
>> To continue along the "for the good of the community" path...
>> 
>> If it truly is the lack of a suspend blocker API that is preventing
>> the merge of these out of tree drivers, I second Mark's proposal[1] to
>> merge a noop version of the API while the technical issues continue to
>> be discussed.
>
> I'm against that, sorry.

OK, I'll bite... Why?

>> Then we would see how many drivers get submitted and merged.
>>
>> Personally, I suspect that lack of this feature is not the real
>> obstacle to getting these out-of-tree drivers upstream.  Having this
>> API upstream will not change the product schedules and corporate
>> cultures that have prevented code from making its way upstream.
>
> But apparently it is considered as a suitable excuse.

No, it is not a _technical_ excuse.  Just a healthy, experience-based
dose of skepticism.

It was expressed because I find the arguments above for merging
because it prevents out-of-tree drivers from merging quite
unconvincing.  This is not just about opportunistic suspend + suspend
blockers specifically but comes from several years experience in the
embedded Linux world.

Kevin
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