linux-kernel - Re: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 6)

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Date:	Wed, 19 May 2010 22:42:55 +0200
From:	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl>
To:	felipe.balbi@...ia.com
Cc:	ext James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...e.de>,
	"me@...ipebalbi.com" <me@...ipebalbi.com>,
	Kevin Hilman <khilman@...prootsystems.com>,
	Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>,
	"linux-omap@...r.kernel.org" <linux-omap@...r.kernel.org>,
	"Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@....edu>,
	Geoff Smith <geoffx.smith@...el.com>,
	Brian Swetland <swetland@...gle.com>,
	Kernel development list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Oleg Nesterov <oleg@...hat.com>,
	Mark Brown <broonie@...nsource.wolfsonmicro.com>,
	Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>,
	"Linux-pm mailing list" <linux-pm@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
	Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...radead.org>,
	Liam Girdwood <lrg@...mlogic.co.uk>,
	Matthew Garrett <mjg@...hat.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 6)

On Wednesday 19 May 2010, Felipe Balbi wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 03:59:48PM +0200, ext James Bottomley wrote:
> >On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 09:40 +0300, Felipe Balbi wrote:
> >> On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 09:49:35PM +0200, ext James Bottomley wrote:
> >> >Right, because Firmware writers are from the rugged unresponsive uplands
> >> >of planet
> >> >ignore-user-complaints-and-eat-them-for-breakfast-if-they-file-bugs and
> >> >Software writers are from the emollient responsive groves of planet
> >> >harmony.  Obviously what would work for one wouldn't work for the other.
> >> >
> >> >As a software writer, I fully buy into that world view.  The trouble is
> >> >that when I go to dinner with hardware people, they seem to be awfully
> >> >nice chaps ... almost exactly like me, in fact ...
> >>
> >> what does this add to suspend_blockers discussion ?
> >
> >Sorry I was evidently being too subtle.
> >
> >The point is that if, as you acknowledge, that you can't train firmware
> >engineers to be responsive, there's no reason to think you can train
> >software engineers in the same quality ... they're very similar people.
> 
> I wouldn't say it's up to the engineer himself, it's more related to how 
> the company that person works for deal with such things.
> 
> >The corollary is that real world systems have to operate in the face of
> >misbehaving hardware *and* software.
> 
> I still think the kernel shouldn't deal with broken applications and we 
> shouldn't try to fix them in kernel space. We can, of course, try to 
> find them and have all sorts of bells and whistles shouting 'process 
> %s is preventing CPU from sleeping for %llu nanoseconds' or something 
> like that.

Please note that this approach is not too practical for vendors who ship
systems like cell phones to the general public.

Rafael
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