Message-ID: <AANLkTimCjUgy9sN5QzxwW960v9eNWAjMBdq3H6P20NUa@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 2 Nov 2010 08:46:56 +0900
From:	Minchan Kim <minchan.kim@...il.com>
To:	Mandeep Singh Baines <msb@...omium.org>
Cc:	KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@...fujitsu.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>, Mel Gorman <mel@....ul.ie>,
	Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-mm@...ck.org, wad@...omium.org,
	olofj@...omium.org, hughd@...omium.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH] RFC: vmscan: add min_filelist_kbytes sysctl for
 protecting the working set

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:24 AM, Mandeep Singh Baines <msb@...omium.org> wrote:
> KOSAKI Motohiro (kosaki.motohiro@...fujitsu.com) wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> > On ChromiumOS, we do not use swap. When memory is low, the only way to
>> > free memory is to reclaim pages from the file list. This results in a
>> > lot of thrashing under low memory conditions. We see the system become
>> > unresponsive for minutes before it eventually OOMs. We also see very
>> > slow browser tab switching under low memory. Instead of an unresponsive
>> > system, we'd really like the kernel to OOM as soon as it starts to
>> > thrash. If it can't keep the working set in memory, then OOM.
>> > Losing one of many tabs is a better behaviour for the user than an
>> > unresponsive system.
>> >
>> > This patch create a new sysctl, min_filelist_kbytes, which disables reclaim
>> > of file-backed pages when when there are less than min_filelist_bytes worth
>> > of such pages in the cache. This tunable is handy for low memory systems
>> > using solid-state storage where interactive response is more important
>> > than not OOMing.
>> >
>> > With this patch and min_filelist_kbytes set to 50000, I see very little
>> > block layer activity during low memory. The system stays responsive under
>> > low memory and browser tab switching is fast. Eventually, a process a gets
>> > killed by OOM. Without this patch, the system gets wedged for minutes
>> > before it eventually OOMs. Below is the vmstat output from my test runs.
>>
>> I've heared similar requirement sometimes from embedded people. then also
>> don't use swap. then, I don't think this is hopeless idea. but I hope to
>> clarify some thing at first.
>>
>
> swap would be intersting if we could somehow control swap thrashing. Maybe
> we could add min_anonlist_kbytes. Just kidding:)
>
>> Yes, a system often have should-not-be-evicted-file-caches. Typically, they
>> are libc, libX11 and some GUI libraries. Traditionally, we was making tiny
>> application which linked above important lib and call mlockall() at startup.
>> such technique prevent reclaim. So, Q1: Why do you think above traditional way
>> is insufficient?
>>
>
> mlock is too coarse grain. It requires locking the whole file in memory.
> The chrome and X binaries are quite large so locking them would waste a lot
> of memory. We could lock just the pages that are part of the working set but
> that is difficult to do in practice. Its unmaintainable if you do it
> statically. If you do it at runtime by mlocking the working set, you're
> sort of giving up on mm's active list.
>
> Like akpm, I'm sad that we need this patch. I'd rather the kernel did a better
> job of identifying the working set. We did look at ways to do a better
> job of keeping the working set in the active list but these were tricker
> patches and never quite worked out. This patch is simple and works great.
>
> Under memory pressure, I see the active list get smaller and smaller. Its
> getting smaller because we're scanning it faster and faster, causing more
> and more page faults which slows forward progress resulting in the active
> list getting smaller still. One way to approach this might to make the
> scan rate constant and configurable. It doesn't seem right that we scan
> memory faster and faster under low memory. For us, we'd rather OOM than
> evict pages that are likely to be accessed again so we'd prefer to make
> a conservative estimate as to what belongs in the working set. Other
> folks (long computations) might want to reclaim more aggressively.
>
>> Q2: In the above you used min_filelist_kbytes=50000. How do you decide
>> such value? Do other users can calculate proper value?
>>
>
> 50M was small enough that we were comfortable with keeping 50M of file pages
> in memory and large enough that it is bigger than the working set. I tested
> by loading up a bunch of popular web sites in chrome and then observing what
> happend when I ran out of memory. With 50M, I saw almost no thrashing and
> the system stayed responsive even under low memory. but I wanted to be
> conservative since I'm really just guessing.
>
> Other users could calculate their value by doing something similar. Load
> up the system (exhaust free memory) with a typical load and then observe
> file io via vmstat. They can then set min_filelist_kbytes to the value
> where they see a tolerable amounting of thrashing (page faults, block io).
>
>> In addition, I have two request. R1: I think chromium specific feature is
>> harder acceptable because it's harder maintable. but we have good chance to
>> solve embedded generic issue. Please discuss Minchan and/or another embedded
>
> I think this feature should be useful to a lot of embedded applications where
> OOM is OK, especially web browsing applications where the user is OK with
> losing 1 of many tabs they have open. However, I consider this patch a
> stop-gap. I think the real solution is to do a better job of protecting
> the active list.
>
>> developers. R2: If you want to deal OOM combination, please consider to
>> combination of memcg OOM notifier too. It is most flexible and powerful OOM
>> mechanism. Probably desktop and server people never use bare OOM killer intentionally.
>>
>
> Yes, will definitely look at OOM notifier. Currently trying to see if we can
> get by with oomadj. With OOM notifier you'd have to respond earlier so you
> might OOM more. However, with a notifier you might be able to take action that
> might prevent OOM altogether.
>
> I see memcg more as an isolation mechanism but I guess you could use it to
> isolate the working set from anon browser tab data as Kamezawa suggests.


I don't think current VM behavior has a problem.
Current problem is that you use up many memory than real memory.
As system memory without swap is low, VM doesn't have a many choice.
It ends up evict your working set to meet for user request. It's very
natural result for greedy user.

Rather than OOM notifier, what we need is memory notifier.
AFAIR, before some years ago, KOSAKI tried similar thing .
http://lwn.net/Articles/268732/
(I can't remember why KOSAKI quit it exactly, AFAIR, some signal time
can't meet yours requirement. I mean when the user receive the memory
low signal, it's too late. Maybe there are other causes for KOSAKi to
quit it.)
Anyway, If the system memory is low, your intelligent middleware can
control it very well than VM.
In this chance, how about improving it?
Mandeep, Could you feel needing this feature?



> Regards,
> Mandeep
>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>



-- 
Kind regards,
Minchan Kim
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