Message-ID: <20120910211018.GB21484@redhat.com>
Date:	Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:10:19 +0300
From:	"Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
To:	Mike Waychison <mikew@...gle.com>
Cc:	Frank Swiderski <fes@...gle.com>,
	Rusty Russell <rusty@...tcorp.com.au>,
	Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>,
	Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@...hat.com>,
	virtualization@...ts.linux-foundation.org,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	kvm@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH] Add a page cache-backed balloon device driver.

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 04:49:40PM -0400, Mike Waychison wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@...hat.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 01:37:06PM -0400, Mike Waychison wrote:
> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 5:05 AM, Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@...hat.com> wrote:
> >> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 01:32:58PM -0700, Frank Swiderski wrote:
> >> >> This implementation of a virtio balloon driver uses the page cache to
> >> >> "store" pages that have been released to the host.  The communication
> >> >> (outside of target counts) is one way--the guest notifies the host when
> >> >> it adds a page to the page cache, allowing the host to madvise(2) with
> >> >> MADV_DONTNEED.  Reclaim in the guest is therefore automatic and implicit
> >> >> (via the regular page reclaim).  This means that inflating the balloon
> >> >> is similar to the existing balloon mechanism, but the deflate is
> >> >> different--it re-uses existing Linux kernel functionality to
> >> >> automatically reclaim.
> >> >>
> >> >> Signed-off-by: Frank Swiderski <fes@...gle.com>
> >>
> >> Hi Michael,
> >>
> >> I'm very sorry that Frank and I have been silent on these threads.
> >> I've been out of the office and Frank has been been swamped :)
> >>
> >> I'll take a stab at answering some of your questions below, and
> >> hopefully we can end up on the same page.
> >>
> >> > I've been trying to understand this, and I have
> >> > a question: what exactly is the benefit
> >> > of this new device?r balloon is told upper limit on target size by host and pulls
> >>
> >> The key difference between this device/driver and the pre-existing
> >> virtio_balloon device/driver is in how the memory pressure loop is
> >> controlled.
> >>
> >> With the pre-existing balloon device/driver, the control loop for how
> >> much memory a given VM is allowed to use is controlled completely by
> >> the host.  This is probably fine if the goal is to pack as much work
> >> on a given host as possible, but it says nothing about the expected
> >> performance that any given VM is expecting to have.  Specifically, it
> >> allows the host to set a target goal for the size of a VM, and the
> >> driver in the guest does whatever is needed to get to that goal.  This
> >> is great for systems where one wants to "grow or shrink" a VM from the
> >> outside.
> >>
> >>
> >> This behaviour however doesn't match what applications actually expectr balloon is told upper limit on target size by host and pulls
> >> from a memory control loop however.  In a native setup, an application
> >> can usually expect to allocate memory from the kernel on an as-needed
> >> basis, and can in turn return memory back to the system (using a heap
> >> implementation that actually releases memory that is).  The dynamic
> >> size of an application is completely controlled by the application,
> >> and there is very little that cluster management software can do to
> >> ensure that the application fits some prescribed size.
> >>
> >> We recognized this in the development of our cluster management
> >> software long ago, so our systems are designed for managing tasks that
> >> have a dynamic memory footprint.  Overcommit is possible (as most
> >> applications do not use the full reservation of memory they asked for
> >> originally), letting us do things like schedule lower priority/lower
> >> service-classification work using resources that are otherwise
> >> available in stand-by for high-priority/low-latency workloads.
> >
> > OK I am not sure I got this right so pls tell me if this summary is
> > correct (note: this does not talk about what guest does with memory,
> > ust what it is that device does):
> >
> > - existing balloon is told lower limit on target size by host and pulls in at least
> >   target size. Guest can inflate > target size if it likes
> >   and then it is OK to deflate back to target size but not less.
> 
> Is this true?   I take it nothing is keeping the existing balloon
> driver from going over the target, but the same can be said about
> either balloon implementation.
> 
> > - your balloon is told upper limit on target size by host and pulls at most
> >   target size. Guest can deflate down to 0 at any point.
> >
> > If so I think both approaches make sense and in fact they
> > can be useful at the same time for the same guest.
> > In that case, I see two ways how this can be done:
> >
> > 1. two devices: existing ballon + cache balloon the
> > 2. add "upper limit" to existing ballon
> >
> > A single device looks a bit more natural in that we don't
> > really care in which balloon a page is as long as we
> > are between lower and upper limit. Right?
> 
> I agree that this may be better done using a single device if possible.

I am not sure myself, just asking.

> > From implementation POV we could have it use
> > pagecache for pages above lower limit but that
> > is a separate question about driver design,
> > I would like to make sure I understand the highr balloon is told upper limit on tr balloon is told upper limit on target size by host and pullsarget size by host and pulls
> > level design first.
> 
> I agree that this is an implementation detail that is separate from
> discussions of high and low limits.  That said, there are several
> advantages to pushing these pages to the page cache (memory defrag
> still works for one).

I'm not arguing against it at all.

> >> > Note that users could not care less about how a driver
> >> > is implemented internally.
> >> >
> >> > Is there some workload where you see VM working better with
> >> > this than regular balloon? Any numbers?
> >>
> >> This device is less about performance as it is about getting the
> >> memory size of a job (or in this case, a job in a VM) to grow and
> >> shrink as the application workload sees fit, much like how processes
> >> today can grow and shrink without external direction.
> >
> > Still, e.g. swap in host achieves more or less the same functionality.
> 
> Swap comes at the extremely prejudiced cost of latency.  Swap is very
> very rarely used in our production environment for this reason.
> 
> > I am guessing balloon can work better by getting more cooperation
> > from guest but aren't there any tests showing this is true in practice?
> 
> There aren't any meaningful test-specific numbers that I can readily
> share unfortunately :(  If you have suggestions for specific things we
> should try, that may be useful.
> 
> The way this change is validated on our end is to ensure that VM
> processes on the host "shrink" to a reasonable working set in size
> that is near-linear with the expected working set size for the
> embedded tasks as if they were running native on the host.  Making
> this happen with the current balloon just isn't possible as there
> isn't enough visibility on the host as to how much pressure there is
> in the guest.
> 
> >
> >
> >> >
> >> > Also, can't we just replace existing balloon implementation
> >> > with this one?
> >>
> >> Perhaps, but as described above, both devices have very different
> >> characteristics.
> >>
> >> > Why it is so important to deflate silently?
> >>
> >> It may not be so important to deflate silently.  I'm not sure why it
> >> is important that we deflate "loudly" though either :)  Doing so seems
> >> like unnecessary guest/host communication IMO, especially if the guest
> >> is expecting to be able to grow to totalram (and the host isn't able
> >> to nack any pages reclaimed anyway...).
> >
> > First, we could add nack easily enough :)
> 
> :) Sure.  Not sure how the driver is going to expect to handle that though ! :D

Not sure about pagecache backed - regular one can just hang on
to the page for a while more and try later or with another page.

> > Second, access gets an exit anyway. If you tell
> > host first you can maybe batch these and actually speed things up.
> > It remains to be measured but historically we told host
> > so the onus of proof would be on whoever wants to remove this.
> 
> I'll concede that there isn't a very compelling argument as to why the
> balloon should deflate silently.  You are right that it may be better
> to deflate in batches (amortizing exit costs). That said, it isn't
> totally obvious that queue'ing pfns to the virtio queue is the right
> thing to do algorithmically either.  Currently, the file balloon
> driver can reclaim memory inline with memory reclaim (via the
> ->writepage callback). Doing otherwise may cause the LRU shrinking to
> queue large numbers of pages to the virtio queue, without any
> immediate progress made with regards to actually freeing memory.  I'm
> worried that such an enqueue scheme will cause large bursts of pages
> to be deflated unnecessarily when we go into reclaim.

Yes it would seem writepage is not a good mechanism since
it can try to write pages speculatively.
Maybe add a flag to tell LRU to only write pages when
we really need the memory?

> On the plus side, having an exit taken here on each page turns out to
> be relatively cheap, as the vmexit from the page fault should be
> faster to process as it is fully handled within the host kernel.
> 
> Perhaps some combination of both methods is required? I'm not sure :\

Perhaps some benchmarking is in order :)
Can you try telling host, potentially MADV_WILL_NEED
in that case like qemu does, then run your proprietary test
and see if things work well enough?

> >
> > Third, see discussion on ML - we came up with
> > the idea of locking/unlocking balloon memory
> > which is useful for an assigned device.
> > Requires telling host first.
> 
> I just skimmed the other thread (sorry, I'm very much backlogged on
> email).  By "locking", does this mean pinning the pages so that they
> are not changed?

Yes by get user pages.

> I'll admit that I'm not familiar with the details for device
> assignment.  If a page for a given bus address isn't present in the
> IOMMU, does this not result in a serviceable fault?

Yes.

> >
> > Also knowing how much memory there is in a balloon
> > would be useful for admin.
> 
> This is just another counter and should already be exposed.
> 
> >
> > There could be other uses.
> >
> >> > I guess filesystem does not currently get a callback
> >> > before page is reclaimed but this isan implementation detail -
> >> > maybe this can be fixed?
> >>
> >> I do not follow this question.
> >
> > Assume we want to tell host before use.
> > Can you implement this on top of your patch?
> 
> Potentially, yes.  Both drivers are bare-bones at the moment IIRC and
> don't support sending multiple outstanding commands to the host, but
> this could be conceivably fixed (although one would have to work out
> what happens when virtio_add_buf() returns -ENOBUFS).

It's not enough to add buf. You need to wait for host ack.
Once you got ack you know you can add another buf.

> >
> >> >
> >> > Also can you pls answer Avi's question?
> >> > How is overcommit managed?
> >>
> >> Overcommit in our deployments is managed using memory cgroups on the
> >> host.  This allows us to have very directed policies as to how
> >> competing VMs on a host may overcommit.
> >
> > So you push VM out to swap if it's over allowed memory?
> 
> As mentioned above, we don't use swap. If the task is of a lower
> service band, it may end up blocking a lot more waiting for host
> memory to become available, or may even be killed by the system and
> restarted elsewhere.  Tasks that are of the higher service bands will
> cause other tasks of lower service band to give up the ram (by will or
> by force).

Right. I think the comment below applies.

> > Existing balloon does this better as it is cooperative,
> > it seems.
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