Message-ID: <1367590278.28742.108.camel@zakaz.uk.xensource.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 May 2013 15:11:18 +0100
From:	Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@...rix.com>
To:	Daniel Kiper <daniel.kiper@...cle.com>
CC:	Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk <konrad.wilk@...cle.com>,
	Stefano Stabellini <Stefano.Stabellini@...citrix.com>,
	"xen-devel@...ts.xensource.com" <xen-devel@...ts.xensource.com>,
	"Keir (Xen.org)" <keir@....org>,
	"Dave Scott" <Dave.Scott@...citrix.com>,
	"james-xen@...gwall.me.uk" <james-xen@...gwall.me.uk>,
	Ian Jackson <Ian.Jackson@...citrix.com>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"Jonathan Ludlam" <Jonathan.Ludlam@...citrix.com>,
	"darren.s.shepherd@...il.com" <darren.s.shepherd@...il.com>,
	David Vrabel <david.vrabel@...rix.com>,
	"carsten@...iers.de" <carsten@...iers.de>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH v2 2/2] xen/balloon: Enforce various limits
 on target

On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 14:47 +0100, Daniel Kiper wrote:
> On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 02:21:24PM +0100, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 14:00 +0100, Daniel Kiper wrote:
> > > On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 09:15:32AM +0100, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 19:04 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 12:34:32PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > > > The xapi guys, CC'ed, might have more insights on what exactly is.
> > > >
> > > > I think that unless someone can remember what this issue was we should
> > > > just chalk it up to a historical artefact of something xapi (or maybe
> > > > some historical guest) was doing which we have no reason to believe
> > > > needs to be carried over to libxl.
> > > >
> > > > IOW I'm suggesting we set LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT to 0 early in the 4.4
> > > > cycle and see how it goes. If someone can show either empirical evidence
> > > > or (better) logically argue that a fudge is required then we can always
> > > > put it back (or it may turn out to be the caller's issue, in which case
> > > > they can deal with it, hopefully xapi-on-libxl won't apply this fudge
> > > > twice...).
> > > >
> > > > Alternatively I'm also strongly considering having debug builds of the
> > > > toolstack randomise the amount of slack, that ought to shake out any
> > > > lingering issues...
> > >
> > > Do you suggest to postopone this work until 4.4 merge window?
> >
> > 4.4 is a Xen version, this is a Linux patch so I'm not sure what you
> > mean.
> 
> I thought about my libxl patches. Should I post new version without
> LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT when 4.4 merge window open?

Xen doesn't have a concept of a merge window. However we are currently
in feature freeze for 4.3. You'd need to speak to the release manager
(George Dunlap) to see if your xen side patches are acceptable at this
stage of the release.

AIUI we were intending to do an RC1 release on Monday or Tuesday. It's
probably too late to be making any major changes to libxl's behaviour
without an extremely good rationale.

> > > If yes, then I think that at least "xen/balloon: Enforce various limits on target"
> > > patch (without this crazy libxl hack) should be applied.
> >
> > You mean this patch with only the MAX_DOMAIN_PAGES clamping? That seems
> > plausible.
> 
> ... and with XENMEM_maximum_reservation check but wihtout LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT_PAGES.

I am less convinced by this bit, but not as dead against it as I am
against anything with LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT_PAGES in it.

> > > > > > I dislike having to pull this "hack" into Linux, but if it is actually
> > > > > > important to leave LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT unused, then it is worth doing.
> > > > > > I would add a big comment on top saying:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "libxl seems to think that we need to leave LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT
> > > > > > kilobytes unused, let's be gentle and do that."
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that this change in Linux is really just papering over
> > > > the underlying issue. Or at the very least no one has adequately
> > > > explained what that real issue is and why this change is relevant to it
> > > > and/or an appropriate fix for it.
> > > >
> > > > The guest knows what target the toolstack has set for it is (its in the
> > > > target xenstore node), I don't see any reason for the guest to be
> > > > further second guessing that value by examining maxmem (adjusted by a
> > > > fudge factor or otherwise). If the guest is seeing failures to increase
> > > > its reservation when trying to meet that target then either the
> > > > toolstack was buggy in asking it to hit a target greater than its maxmem
> > > > or it is hitting one of the other reason for increase reservation
> > > > failures. Since it needs to deal with the latter anyway I don't see any
> > > > reason to special case maxmem as a cause for a failure.
> > >
> > > Do not forget that guest may change target itself.
> >
> > Yes it can, and that can fail either due to maxmem or due to ENOMEM, and
> > the kernel needs prepared to deal with that when it happens.
> 
> Sure but why we would like to fail in endless loop if maxmem case
> could be easliy detected by checking XENMEM_maximum_reservation?

That endless loop is deliberate. When a target is set the balloon driver
is supposed to try to reach it and if it fails at any given moment it is
supposed to try again. This all relates to the changes made in
bc2c0303226e.

Now you could argue that this case is subtly different from the ENOMEM
case which was the primary focus of that commit but have you thought
about the behaviour you want in the case where maximum_reservation is
subsequently raised? IMHO there's no reason why the balloon driver
shouldn't then automatically make further progress towards the target.

If the infinite loop bothers you then perhaps an exponential backoff in
the frequency of attempts would be a suitable middle ground?

> > > Additionally, we would like to introduce xm compatibility
> > > mode which is a bit different then xl normal behavior.
> >
> > When then you really don't want to be baking specifics of the current
> > model into the kernel, do you.
> 
> Hmmm... Little misunderstanding. As I stated a few times I do not
> want bake any libxl or Xen stuff into Linux Kernel (including
> LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT). I just want to check limits which I think
> make sense in this case.

Sorry, I never noticed you saying that. Where was it?

Ian.

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