Message-ID: <20130503154724.GC12463@debian70-amd64.local.net-space.pl>
Date:	Fri, 3 May 2013 17:47:24 +0200
From:	Daniel Kiper <daniel.kiper@...cle.com>
To:	Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@...rix.com>
Cc:	Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk <konrad.wilk@...cle.com>,
	Stefano Stabellini <Stefano.Stabellini@...citrix.com>,
	"xen-devel@...ts.xensource.com" <xen-devel@...ts.xensource.com>,
	"Keir (Xen.org)" <keir@....org>,
	Dave Scott <Dave.Scott@...citrix.com>,
	"james-xen@...gwall.me.uk" <james-xen@...gwall.me.uk>,
	Ian Jackson <Ian.Jackson@...citrix.com>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Jonathan Ludlam <Jonathan.Ludlam@...citrix.com>,
	"darren.s.shepherd@...il.com" <darren.s.shepherd@...il.com>,
	David Vrabel <david.vrabel@...rix.com>,
	"carsten@...iers.de" <carsten@...iers.de>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH v2 2/2] xen/balloon: Enforce various limits
 on target

On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 03:11:18PM +0100, Ian Campbell wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 14:47 +0100, Daniel Kiper wrote:
> > On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 02:21:24PM +0100, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 14:00 +0100, Daniel Kiper wrote:
> > > > On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 09:15:32AM +0100, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 19:04 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 12:34:32PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > > > > The xapi guys, CC'ed, might have more insights on what exactly is.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that unless someone can remember what this issue was we should
> > > > > just chalk it up to a historical artefact of something xapi (or maybe
> > > > > some historical guest) was doing which we have no reason to believe
> > > > > needs to be carried over to libxl.
> > > > >
> > > > > IOW I'm suggesting we set LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT to 0 early in the 4.4
> > > > > cycle and see how it goes. If someone can show either empirical evidence
> > > > > or (better) logically argue that a fudge is required then we can always
> > > > > put it back (or it may turn out to be the caller's issue, in which case
> > > > > they can deal with it, hopefully xapi-on-libxl won't apply this fudge
> > > > > twice...).
> > > > >
> > > > > Alternatively I'm also strongly considering having debug builds of the
> > > > > toolstack randomise the amount of slack, that ought to shake out any
> > > > > lingering issues...
> > > >
> > > > Do you suggest to postopone this work until 4.4 merge window?
> > >
> > > 4.4 is a Xen version, this is a Linux patch so I'm not sure what you
> > > mean.
> >
> > I thought about my libxl patches. Should I post new version without
> > LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT when 4.4 merge window open?
>
> Xen doesn't have a concept of a merge window. However we are currently
> in feature freeze for 4.3. You'd need to speak to the release manager

Yes, I know.

> (George Dunlap) to see if your xen side patches are acceptable at this
> stage of the release.
>
> AIUI we were intending to do an RC1 release on Monday or Tuesday. It's
> probably too late to be making any major changes to libxl's behaviour
> without an extremely good rationale.

I do not insist on that because I am aware that removal
of LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT is too big change. Earlier I thought
that it will be possible because changes were not so drastic.
I will post new version of libxl patches after releasing Xen 4.3.

> > > > If yes, then I think that at least "xen/balloon: Enforce various limits on target"
> > > > patch (without this crazy libxl hack) should be applied.
> > >
> > > You mean this patch with only the MAX_DOMAIN_PAGES clamping? That seems
> > > plausible.
> >
> > ... and with XENMEM_maximum_reservation check but wihtout LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT_PAGES.
>
> I am less convinced by this bit, but not as dead against it as I am
> against anything with LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT_PAGES in it.
>
> > > > > > > I dislike having to pull this "hack" into Linux, but if it is actually
> > > > > > > important to leave LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT unused, then it is worth doing.
> > > > > > > I would add a big comment on top saying:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "libxl seems to think that we need to leave LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT
> > > > > > > kilobytes unused, let's be gentle and do that."
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to me that this change in Linux is really just papering over
> > > > > the underlying issue. Or at the very least no one has adequately
> > > > > explained what that real issue is and why this change is relevant to it
> > > > > and/or an appropriate fix for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > The guest knows what target the toolstack has set for it is (its in the
> > > > > target xenstore node), I don't see any reason for the guest to be
> > > > > further second guessing that value by examining maxmem (adjusted by a
> > > > > fudge factor or otherwise). If the guest is seeing failures to increase
> > > > > its reservation when trying to meet that target then either the
> > > > > toolstack was buggy in asking it to hit a target greater than its maxmem
> > > > > or it is hitting one of the other reason for increase reservation
> > > > > failures. Since it needs to deal with the latter anyway I don't see any
> > > > > reason to special case maxmem as a cause for a failure.
> > > >
> > > > Do not forget that guest may change target itself.
> > >
> > > Yes it can, and that can fail either due to maxmem or due to ENOMEM, and
> > > the kernel needs prepared to deal with that when it happens.
> >
> > Sure but why we would like to fail in endless loop if maxmem case
> > could be easliy detected by checking XENMEM_maximum_reservation?
>
> That endless loop is deliberate. When a target is set the balloon driver
> is supposed to try to reach it and if it fails at any given moment it is
> supposed to try again. This all relates to the changes made in
> bc2c0303226e.
>
> Now you could argue that this case is subtly different from the ENOMEM
> case which was the primary focus of that commit but have you thought
> about the behaviour you want in the case where maximum_reservation is
> subsequently raised? IMHO there's no reason why the balloon driver
> shouldn't then automatically make further progress towards the target.

OK, now it makes sens. Do we assume the same behavior for dom0?
Could we change maximum_reservation for dom0 using xl?

> If the infinite loop bothers you then perhaps an exponential backoff in
> the frequency of attempts would be a suitable middle ground?

Relevant patches made by me are merged some time ago.

> > > > Additionally, we would like to introduce xm compatibility
> > > > mode which is a bit different then xl normal behavior.
> > >
> > > When then you really don't want to be baking specifics of the current
> > > model into the kernel, do you.
> >
> > Hmmm... Little misunderstanding. As I stated a few times I do not
> > want bake any libxl or Xen stuff into Linux Kernel (including
> > LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT). I just want to check limits which I think
> > make sense in this case.
>
> Sorry, I never noticed you saying that. Where was it?

Here http://lists.xen.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2013-04/msg03259.html
I stated that I do not like this constant. I explained why this was done
in that way. Later I found relevant commit which introduced it and asked
authors about it. I think that shows that I am not happy with
LIBXL_MAXMEM_CONSTANT and I am looking for good solution for this problem.

Daniel
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