linux-kernel - Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <51E5D7C8.5000306@gmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:31:20 -0400
From:	Ric Wheeler <ricwheeler@...il.com>
To:	Sarah Sharp <sarah.a.sharp@...ux.intel.com>
CC:	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>, David Lang <david@...g.hm>,
	ksummit-2013-discuss@...ts.linuxfoundation.org,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	Darren Hart <dvhart@...ux.intel.com>,
	Olivier Galibert <galibert@...ox.com>,
	stable <stable@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Willy Tarreau <w@....eu>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that's true.  Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
>>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive".  Others
>>> simply don't give a shit.  So we need to figure out how to meet
>>> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility.
>> I have to ask this because I'm thick, and don't really understand,
>> but ...
>>
>> What problem exactly are we trying to solve here?
> Personal attacks are not cool Steve.  Some people simply don't care if a
> verbal tirade is directed at them.  Others do not want anyone to attack
> them personally, but they're fine with people attacking their code.
>
> Bystanders that don't understand the kernel community structure are
> discouraged from contributing because they don't want to be verbally
> abused, and they really don't want to see either personal attacks or
> intense belittling, demeaning comments about code.
>
> In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
> baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we want
> from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions" and
> "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
> written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
> point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
>
> That is the problem.
>
> Sarah Sharp

The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less effective 
as a community.

Getting the balance right is clearly difficult in a large, diverse community, 
but I do think that the key is to focus criticism on the code or technical 
arguments and avoid attacks on the individual.

Being direct and funny in a critique is not the core of the issue,

Ric

--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/