Date:	Wed, 17 Jul 2013 23:16:42 -0400 (EDT)
From:	CAI Qian <caiqian@...hat.com>
To:	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>
Cc:	Sarah Sharp <sarah.a.sharp@...ux.intel.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>,
	Guenter Roeck <linux@...ck-us.net>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	Dave Jones <davej@...hat.com>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	stable <stable@...r.kernel.org>,
	Darren Hart <dvhart@...ux.intel.com>
Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review



----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Gleixner" <tglx@...utronix.de>
> To: "Sarah Sharp" <sarah.a.sharp@...ux.intel.com>
> Cc: "Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>, "Ingo Molnar" <mingo@...nel.org>, "Guenter Roeck"
> <linux@...ck-us.net>, "Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>, "Steven Rostedt" <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
> "Dave Jones" <davej@...hat.com>, "Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, "Andrew Morton"
> <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>, "stable" <stable@...r.kernel.org>, "Darren Hart" <dvhart@...ux.intel.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:42:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
> 
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:07:56PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Sarah Sharp
> > > <sarah.a.sharp@...ux.intel.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bullshit.  I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless maintainers
> > > > why there's no way you can revert their merge that caused regressions,
> > > > and ask them to fit it without resorting to tearing them down
> > > > emotionally:
> > > 
> > > Oh, I'll be polite when it's called for.
> > > 
> > > But when people who know better send me crap, I'll curse at them.
> > > 
> > > I suspect you'll notice me cursing *way* more at top developers than
> > > random people on the list. I expect more from them, and conversely
> > > I'll be a lot more upset when they do something that I really think
> > > was not great.
> > > 
> > > For example, my latest cursing explosion was for the x86 maintainers,
> > > and it comes from the fact that I *know* they know to do better. The
> > > x86 tip pulls have generally been through way more testing than most
> > > other pulls I get (not just compiling, but even booting randconfigs
> > > etc). So when an x86 pull request comes in that clearly missed that
> > > expected level of quality, I go to town.
> > >
> > Good lord.  So anyone that is one of your "top maintainers" could be
> > exposed to your verbal abuse just because they "should have known
> > better"?
> 
> I'm one of the "victims" of Linus' latest "verbal abuse". :)
>  
> Just for the record. I got grilled by Linus several times over the
> last years and I can't remember a single instance where it was
> unjustified. When I see such a mail in my inbox, I know that I fucked
> up royally and all I do is to figure out what I broke this time and
> fix it. I don't give a rat's ass about his "abusive" language. See
> below.
> 
> > exposed to your verbal abuse just because they "should have known
> > better"?
> 
> You know what "should have known better" stands for?
> 
>     It stands for violating trust.
> 
> Linus simply has to trusts his top level maintainers, because he
> cannot review, audit and check 10k patches which flow into his tree
> every merge window himself.
> 
> So if he finds out that someone who has his ultimate trust sends him a
> pile of crap, he tells that person in his own unmisunderstandable way
> that he's not amused.
> 
> > You know what the definition of an abuser is?  Someone that seeks out
> > victims that they know will "just take it" and keep the abuse "between
> > the two of them".  They pick victims that won't fight back or report the
> > abuse.
> 
> IOW, I'm a typical victim of abuse.
> 
> Let me clarify that.
> 
> The person who gets away with picking me for this kind of abuse has
> not been born yet. And Linus knows very well, that he gets the full
> pack back from me (in some different form of "abusive language") if he
> yelled at me for no reason. It's documented out there including his
> apologies.
> 
> So if you talk about abuse, then you need an abuser and a victim. So
> your argumentation falls flat because there is no victim.
Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an example that
people may follow?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi_underage_prostitution_charges
It called "abuse of office" or abuse of the power.
> 
> I do not care about his swear words and rants at all, because I know
> that it makes him feel better.
> 
>      That's a cultural thing.
> 
> Where I grew up it's part of the culture to explode, let off steam and
> then go and have a beer together. I strongly believe this prevents
> gastric ulcer and keeps you honest. Linus and I have this kind of
> relationship. We respect each other, we trust each other and when one
> side fucks up we yell at each other and then meet at the bar for a
> drink.
> 
> Linus did NOT abuse me in his latest rant. He simply told me in a very
> strong language that he's grumpy because I violated his trust. And
> that's legitimate. It's also legitimate to do that in public because
> it documents that the top level maintainers are not impeccable. And it
> sets a clear expectation bar for those who want to become maintainers
> of any level.
> 
> Aside of that I completely agree with Linus, that this policital
> correctness crusades are merily creating more subtle and hard to fight
> forms of real abuse.
> 
> I observe that every other day in big corporates, which have written
> down code of conducts and a gazillion of rules for interaction; they
> just foster dishonesty and other fallacies.
> 
> I really prefer the honest slap from Linus than dealing with people
> who signed and "comply" to some code of conduct and stab you in your
> back wherever they can.
> 
> If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone
> who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to
> deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go into rant
> mode, then I'm all on your side.
> 
> Aside of that, I agree that Linus could achieve the same effect by
> using a different (more palatable to you) language, but that's a
> different story.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 	tglx
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