linux-kernel - Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

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Date:	Wed, 17 Jul 2013 23:00:54 -0400 (EDT)
From:	CAI Qian <caiqian@...hat.com>
To:	Sarah Sharp <sarah.a.sharp@...ux.intel.com>
Cc:	Trond Myklebust <Trond.Myklebust@...app.com>,
	Ric Wheeler <ricwheeler@...il.com>, David Lang <david@...g.hm>,
	ksummit-2013-discuss@...ts.linuxfoundation.org,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	Darren Hart <dvhart@...ux.intel.com>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>,
	Olivier Galibert <galibert@...ox.com>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	stable <stable@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Willy Tarreau <w@....eu>
Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML



----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sarah Sharp" <sarah.a.sharp@...ux.intel.com>
> To: "CAI Qian" <caiqian@...hat.com>
> Cc: "Trond Myklebust" <Trond.Myklebust@...app.com>, "Ric Wheeler" <ricwheeler@...il.com>, "David Lang"
> <david@...g.hm>, ksummit-2013-discuss@...ts.linuxfoundation.org, "Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
> "Darren Hart" <dvhart@...ux.intel.com>, "Ingo Molnar" <mingo@...nel.org>, "Olivier Galibert" <galibert@...ox.com>,
> "Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, "stable" <stable@...r.kernel.org>, "Linus Torvalds"
> <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>, "Willy Tarreau" <w@....eu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:48:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:36:36AM -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> > > > On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > > > >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > > > In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where
> > > > > the
> > > > > baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we
> > > > > want
> > > > > from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions"
> > > > > and
> > > > > "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
> > > > > written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
> > > > > point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is the problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sarah Sharp
> > > > 
> > > > The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less
> > > > effective
> > > > as a community.
> > > 
> > > Not really. Most of the people who already work as part of this
> > > community are completely used to it. We've created the environment, and
> > > have no problems with it.
> > > 
> > > Where it could possibly be a problem is when it comes to recruiting
> > > _new_ members to our community. Particularly so given that some
> > > journalists take a special pleasure in reporting particularly juicy
> > > comments and antics. That would tend to scare off a lot of gun-shy
> > > newbies.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, it might tend to bias our recruitment toward people
> > > of a more "special" disposition. Perhaps we finally need the services of
> > > a social scientist to help us find out...
> >
> > Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
> > new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
> > just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture?
> 
> No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with
> shit".  We need a better pipeline for people who can work together
> civilly, and still get shit done.
> 
> I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development,
> through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women.  They slowly get introduced
> to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate
> mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel
> mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists.
> We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have
> even more the next round.
> 
> So deal with it.  You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel
> community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal
> abuse.  If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women
> or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop.
Maybe we need something like this?
http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct
> 
> Sarah Sharp
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