Date:	Thu, 30 Oct 2014 19:31:48 +0800
From:	zhanghailiang <zhang.zhanghailiang@...wei.com>
To:	Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@...hat.com>
CC:	<qemu-devel@...gnu.org>, <kvm@...r.kernel.org>,
	<linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andres Lagar-Cavilla <andreslc@...gle.com>,
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	Juan Quintela <quintela@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/17] RFC: userfault v2

On 2014/10/30 1:46, Andrea Arcangeli wrote:
> Hi Zhanghailiang,
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 05:32:51PM +0800, zhanghailiang wrote:
>> Hi Andrea,
>>
>> Thanks for your hard work on userfault;)
>>
>> This is really a useful API.
>>
>> I want to confirm a question:
>> Can we support distinguishing between writing and reading memory for userfault?
>> That is, we can decide whether writing a page, reading a page or both trigger userfault.
>>
>> I think this will help supporting vhost-scsi,ivshmem for migration,
>> we can trace dirty page in userspace.
>>
>> Actually, i'm trying to relize live memory snapshot based on pre-copy and userfault,
>> but reading memory from migration thread will also trigger userfault.
>> It will be easy to implement live memory snapshot, if we support configuring
>> userfault for writing memory only.
>
> Mail is going to be long enough already so I'll just assume tracking
> dirty memory in userland (instead of doing it in kernel) is worthy
> feature to have here.
>
> After some chat during the KVMForum I've been already thinking it
> could be beneficial for some usage to give userland the information
> about the fault being read or write, combined with the ability of
> mapping pages wrprotected to mcopy_atomic (that would work without
> false positives only with MADV_DONTFORK also set, but it's already set
> in qemu). That will require "vma->vm_flags & VM_USERFAULT" to be
> checked also in the wrprotect faults, not just in the not present
> faults, but it's not a massive change. Returning the read/write
> information is also a not massive change. This will then payoff mostly
> if there's also a way to remove the memory atomically (kind of
> remap_anon_pages).
>
> Would that be enough? I mean are you still ok if non present read
> fault traps too (you'd be notified it's a read) and you get
> notification for both wrprotect and non present faults?
>
Hi Andrea,

Thanks for your reply, and your patience;)

Er, maybe i didn't describe clearly. What i really need for live memory snapshot
is only wrprotect fault, like kvm's dirty tracing mechanism, *only tracing write action*.

My initial solution scheme for live memory snapshot is:
(1) pause VM
(2) using userfaultfd to mark all memory of VM is wrprotect (readonly)
(3) save deivce state to snapshot file
(4) resume VM
(5) snapshot thread begin to save page of memory to snapshot file
(6) VM is going to run, and it is OK for VM or other thread to read ram (no fault trap),
     but if VM try to write page (dirty the page), there will be
     a userfault trap notification.
(7) a fault-handle-thread reads the page request from userfaultfd,
     it will copy content of the page to some buffers, and then remove the page's
     wrprotect limit(still using the userfaultfd to tell kernel).
(8) after step (7), VM can continue to write the page which is now can be write.
(9) snapshot thread save the page cached in step (7)
(10) repeat step (5)~(9) until all VM's memory is saved to snapshot file.

So, what i need for userfault is supporting only wrprotect fault. i don't
want to get notification for non present reading faults, it will influence
VM's performance and the efficiency of doing snapshot.

Also, i think this feature will benefit for migration of ivshmem and vhost-scsi
which have no dirty-page-tracing now.

> The question then is how you mark the memory readonly to let the
> wrprotect faults trap if the memory already existed and you didn't map
> it yourself in the guest with mcopy_atomic with a readonly flag.
>
> My current plan would be:
>
> - keep MADV_USERFAULT|NOUSERFAULT just to set VM_USERFAULT for the
>    fast path check in the not-present and wrprotect page fault
>
> - if VM_USERFAULT is set, find if there's a userfaultfd registered
>    into that vma too
>
>      if yes engage userfaultfd protocol
>
>      otherwise raise SIGBUS (single threaded apps should be fine with
>      SIGBUS and it'll avoid them to spawn a thread in order to talk the
>      userfaultfd protocol)
>
> - if userfaultfd protocol is engaged, return read|write fault + fault
>    address to read(ufd) syscalls
>
> - leave the "userfault" resolution mechanism independent of the
>    userfaultfd protocol so we keep the two problems separated and we
>    don't mix them in the same API which makes it even harder to
>    finalize it.
>
>      add mcopy_atomic (with a flag to map the page readonly too)
>
>      The alternative would be to hide mcopy_atomic (and even
>      remap_anon_pages in order to "remove" the memory atomically for
>      the externalization into the cloud) as userfaultfd commands to
>      write into the fd. But then there would be no much point to keep
>      MADV_USERFAULT around if I do so and I could just remove it
>      too or it doesn't look clean having to open the userfaultfd just
>      to issue an hidden mcopy_atomic.
>
>      So it becomes a decision if the basic SIGBUS mode for single
>      threaded apps should be supported or not. As long as we support
>      SIGBUS too and we don't force to use userfaultfd as the only
>      mechanism to be notified about userfaults, having a separate
>      mcopy_atomic syscall sounds cleaner.
>
>      Perhaps mcopy_atomic could be used in other cases that may arise
>      later that may not be connected with the userfault.
>
> Questions to double check the above plan is ok:
>
> 1) should I drop the SIGBUS behavior and MADV_USERFAULT?
>
> 2) should I hide mcopy_atomic as a write into the userfaultfd?
>
>     NOTE: even if I hide mcopy_atomic as a userfaultfd command to write
>     into the fd, the buffer pointer passed to write() syscall would
>     still _not_ be pointing to the data like a regular write, but it
>     would be a pointer to a command structure that points to the source
>     and destination data of the "hidden" mcopy_atomic, the only
>     advantage is that perhaps I could wakeup the blocked page faults
>     without requiring an additional syscall.
>
>     The standalone mcopy_atomic would still require a write into the
>     userfaultfd as it happens now after remap_anon_pages returns, in
>     order to wakeup the stopped page faults.
>
> 3) should I add a registration command to trap only write faults?
>

Sure, that is what i really need;)


Best Regards，
zhanghailiang

>     The protocol can always be extended later anyway in a backwards
>     compatible way but it's better if we get it fully featured from the
>     start.
>
> For completeness, some answers for other questions I've seen floating
> around but that weren't posted on the list yet (you can skip reading
> the below part if not interested):
>
> - open("/dev/userfault") instead of sys_userfaultfd(), I don't see the
>    benefit: userfaultfd is just like eventfd in terms of kernel API and
>    registering a /dev/ device actually sounds trickier. userfault is a
>    core VM feature and generally we prefer syscalls for core VM
>    features instead of running ioctl on some chardev that may or may
>    not exist. (like we did with /dev/ksm -> MADV_MERGEABLE)
>
> - there was a suggestion during KVMForum about allowing an external
>    program to attach to any MM. Like ptrace. So you could have a single
>    process managing all userfaults for different processes. However
>    because I cannot allow multiple userfaultfd to register into the
>    same range, this doesn't look very reliable (ptrace is kind of an
>    optional/debug feature while if userfault goes wrong and returns
>    -EBUSY things go bad) and there may be other complications. If I'd
>    allow multiple userfaultfd to register into the same range, I
>    wouldn't even know who to deliver the userfault to. It is an erratic
>    behavior. Currently it'd return -EBUSY if the app has a bug and does
>    that, but maybe later this can be relaxed to allow higher
>    scalability with a flag (userfaultfd gets flags as parameters), but
>    it still would need to be the same logic that manages userfaults and
>    the only point of allowing multiple ufd to map the same range would
>    be SMP scalability. So I tend to see the userfaultfd as a MM local
>    thing. The thread managing the userfaults can still talk with
>    another process in the local machine using pipes or sockets if it
>    needs to.
>
> - the userfaultfd protocol version handshake was done this way because
>    it looked more reliable.
>
>    Of course we could pass the version of the protocol as parameter to
>    userfaultfd too, but running the syscall multiple times until
>    -EPROTO didn't return anymore doesn't seem any better than writing
>    into the fd the wanted protocol until you read it back instead of
>    -1ULL. It just looked more reliable not having to run the syscall
>    again and again while depending on -EPROTO or some other
>    -Esomething.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrea
>
> .
>


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