Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1501051054120.18844@knanqh.ubzr>
Date:	Mon, 5 Jan 2015 11:24:36 -0500 (EST)
From:	Nicolas Pitre <nicolas.pitre@...aro.org>
To:	Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com>
cc:	Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@....linux.org.uk>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Pavel Machek <pavel@....cz>,
	Marc Zyngier <Marc.Zyngier@....com>,
	kernel list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH] Revert 9fc2105aeaaf56b0cf75296a84702d0f9e64437b to fix
 pyaudio (and probably more)

On Mon, 5 Jan 2015, Will Deacon wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 05, 2015 at 04:51:31AM +0000, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> > On Sun, 4 Jan 2015, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > > I encourage you *not* to back down like this.  Linus is right in so far
> > > as the regressions issue, but he is *totally* wrong to do the revert,
> > > which IMHO has been done out of nothing more than spite.
> > > 
> > > Either *with or without* the revert, the issue still remains, and needs
> > > to be addressed properly.
> > > 
> > > With the revert in place, we now have insanely small bogomips values
> > > reported via /proc/cpuinfo when hardware timers are used.  That needs
> > > fixing.
> > 
> > Here's my take on it.  Taking a step back, it was stupid to mix bogomips 
> > with timer based delays.
> 
> Well, bogomips is directly related to loops_per_jiffy so I don't think the
> mechanism is "stupid";

It is stupid to use loops_per_jiffy for timer based delay loops.  The 
timer based loop simply polls the timer until the desired time has 
passed.  Adding a loop count on top is completely artificial (may be 
justified to avoid timer wraparounds) but bares no relationship with 
loops_per_jiffy. Therefore determining loops_per_jiffy based on a timer 
frequency is wrong.

> the issue is that userspace makes assumptions
> (bogus or otherwise) about the relation of bogomips to cpu frequency which
> have historically been good enough. More below...

Absolutely.  And that's what my patch is all about: restoring that "good 
enough" for user space (mis)purpose.

> > ----- >8
> > From: Nicolas Pitre <nicolas.pitre@...aro.org>
> > Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 22:28:58 -0500
> > Subject: [PATCH] ARM: disentangle timer based delays and bogomips calibration
> > 
> > The bogomips value is a pseudo CPU speed value originally used to calibrate
> > loop-based small delays.  It is also exported to user space through the
> > /proc filesystem and some user space apps started relying on it.
> > 
> > Modern hardware can vary their CPU clock at run time making the bogomips
> > value less reliable for delay purposes. With the advent of high resolution
> > timers, small delays migrated to timer polling loops instead.  Strangely
> > enough, the bogomips value calibration became timer based too, making it
> > way more bogus than it already was as a CPU speed representation and people
> > using it via /proc/cpuinfo started complaining.
> 
> As you pointed out previously, these complaints were what prompted us to
> revisit the bogomips reporting. The class of application using the value
> was very much things like "How fast is my AwesomePhone-9000?":
> 
>   https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.securiteinfo.android.bogomips&hl=en_GB
>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/byobu/+bug/675442
> 
> so actually, having *these* applications either exit early with an
> "unable to calculate CPU frequency" message or print something like "CPU
> freq: unknown" is arguably the right thing to do.

Don't you dare!  Linus will shut you up. The sacred rule: "We don't 
break user space, period" irrespective of the nefarious application 
purpose for bogomips.

> What Pavel is now reporting is different; some useful piece of 
> software has lost core functionality.
> 
> Now, even with the loop-based bogomips values we have the following
> (user-visible) problems:
> 
>   (1) It's not portable between microarchitectures (for example, some
>       CPUs can give you double the value if they predict the backwards
>       branch in the calibration loop)

Who cares?

>   (2) It's not reliable in the face of frequency scaling

loops_per_jiffy is already scaled accordingly.  Sure it is racy but 
that's what non timer based delay loop using platforms have to live with 
already.  For /proc/cpuinfo purposes that ought to be more than good 
enough.  The MHz on X86 that some applications use in place of the 
bogomips when available has the same issue.

>   (3) It's not reliable in the face of heterogeneous systems (big.LITTLE)

Actually, it is.  With my patch I do get different values in 
/proc/cpuinfo for the A15's and the A7's which is kind of expected.

>   (4) The lpj calculation is susceptible to overflow, limiting the maximum
>       delay value depending on the CPU performance

That's an orthogonal issue that can be fixed separately.

> Essentially, the value is only really useful on relatively low-clocked,
> in-order, uniprocessor systems (like the one where Pavel reported the bug).

Sure.  Still on other systems it is some kind of ballpark figure that 
prevents applications from breaking.

> > Since it was wrong for user space to rely on a "bogus" mips value to start
> > with, the initial responce from kernel people was to remove it.  This broke
> > user space even more as some applications then refused to run altogether.
> > The bogomips export was therefore reinstated in commit 4bf9636c39 ("Revert
> > 'ARM: 7830/1: delay: don't bother reporting bogomips in /proc/cpuinfo'").
> 
> Actually, our initial response was to report a dummy value iirc. I remember
> even making it selectable in kconfig, but it bordered on the absurd. It's
> worth noting that, with the current revert in place, the value reported
> is now basically selectable via the "clock-frequency" property on the
> arch_timer node for systems using the timer implementation.

Which is even more absurd, hence my patch.

> > Because the reported bogomips is orders of magnitude away from the
> > traditionally expected value for a given CPU when timer based delays are
> > in use, and because lumping bogomips and timer based delay loops is rather
> > senseless anyway, let's calibrate bogomips using a CPU loop all the time
> > even when timer based delays are available.  Timer based delays don't
> > need any calibration and /proc/cpuinfo will provide somewhat sensible
> > values again.
> > 
> > In practice, calls to __delay() will now always use the CPU based loop.
> > Things remain unchanged for udelay() and its derivatives.
> 
> Given that we have a hard limit of 3355 bogomips in our calibration code,
> could we not just report that instead? We already have all of the issues I
> highlighted above and the systems that are going to be hit by this are the
> more recent (more performant) cores that will be approaching this maximum
> value anyway.

I suggested 1.00 before in this thread.  I also asked if 10, 100 or 1000 
were any better. Apparently none of them were.  The least controvertial 
value is certainly a runtime determined one.  The hard limit is 
a rather weak excuse that can be fixed.

> We also need something we can port to the arm64 compat layer, so a constant
> would be easier there too, doesn't require the calibration delay at boot
> and doesn't break __delay.

That's a weak excuse too.

> One thing we're missing from all of this is what happens if Pavel's testcase
> is executed on a system using a timer-backed delay? If the program chokes
> on the next line anyway, then we could consider only advertising the
> bogomips line when the loop-based delay is in use.

Won't fix the current user space issue on timer-based-delay systems so 
this brings no good.



Nicolas
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