Date:   Wed, 5 Dec 2018 17:58:28 -0500
From:   Jerome Glisse <jglisse@...hat.com>
To:     Logan Gunthorpe <logang@...tatee.com>
Cc:     Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@...el.com>,
        Andi Kleen <ak@...ux.intel.com>, Linux MM <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@...nel.org>,
        Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...el.com>,
        Haggai Eran <haggaie@...lanox.com>, balbirs@....ibm.com,
        "Aneesh Kumar K.V" <aneesh.kumar@...ux.ibm.com>,
        Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@...nel.crashing.org>,
        "Kuehling, Felix" <felix.kuehling@....com>, Philip.Yang@....com,
        "Koenig, Christian" <christian.koenig@....com>,
        "Blinzer, Paul" <Paul.Blinzer@....com>,
        John Hubbard <jhubbard@...dia.com>, rcampbell@...dia.com
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 02/14] mm/hms: heterogenenous memory system (HMS)
 documentation

On Wed, Dec 05, 2018 at 12:10:10PM -0700, Logan Gunthorpe wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2018-12-05 11:55 a.m., Jerome Glisse wrote:
> > So now once next type of device shows up with the exact same thing
> > let say FPGA, we have to create a new subsystem for them too. Also
> > this make the userspace life much much harder. Now userspace must
> > go parse PCIE, subsystem1, subsystem2, subsystemN, NUMA, ... and
> > merge all that different information together and rebuild the
> > representation i am putting forward in this patchset in userspace.
> 
> Yes. But seeing such FPGA links aren't common yet and there isn't really
> much in terms of common FPGA infrastructure in the kernel (which are
> hard seeing the hardware is infinitely customization) you can let the
> people developing FPGA code worry about it and come up with their own
> solution. Buses between FPGAs may end up never being common enough for
> people to care, or they may end up being so weird that they need their
> own description independent of GPUS, or maybe when they become common
> they find a way to use the GPU link subsystem -- who knows. Don't try to
> design for use cases that don't exist yet.
> 
> Yes, userspace will have to know about all the buses it cares to find
> links over. Sounds like a perfect thing for libhms to do.

So just to be clear here is how i understand your position:
"Single coherent sysfs hierarchy to describe something is useless
 let's git rm drivers/base/"

While i am arguing that "hey the /sys/bus/node/devices/* is nice
but it just does not cut it for all this new hardware platform
if i add new nodes there for my new memory i will break tons of
existing application. So what about a new hierarchy that allow
to describe those new hardware platform in a single place like
today node thing"


> 
> > There is no telling that kernel won't be able to provide quirk and
> > workaround because some merging is actually illegal on a given
> > platform (like some link from a subsystem is not accessible through
> > the PCI connection of one of the device connected to that link).
> 
> These are all just different individual problems which need different
> solutions not grand new design concepts.
> 
> > So it means userspace will have to grow its own database or work-
> > around and quirk and i am back in the situation i am in today.
> 
> No, as I've said, quirks are firmly the responsibility of kernels.
> Userspace will need to know how to work with the different buses and
> CPU/node information but there really isn't that many of these to deal
> with and this is a much easier approach than trying to come up with a
> new API that can wrap the nuances of all existing and potential future
> bus types we may have to deal with.

No can do that is what i am trying to explain. So if i bus 1 in a
sub-system A and usualy that kind of bus can serve a bridge for
PCIE ie a CPU can access device behind it by going through a PCIE
device first. So now the userspace libary have this knowledge
bake in. Now if a platform has a bug for whatever reasons where
that does not hold, the kernel has no way to tell userspace that
there is an exception there. It is up to userspace to have a data
base of quirks.

Kernel see all those objects in isolation in your scheme. While in
what i am proposing there is only one place and any device that
participate in this common place can report any quirks so that a
coherent view is given to user space.

If we have gazillion of places where all this informations is spread
around than we have no way to fix weird inter-action between any
of those.

Cheers,
Jérôme

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