Message-ID: <0101016eb635d158-5e87498b-b906-4ec2-813f-83275cab3555-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
Date:   Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:10:10 +0000
From:   rampraka@...eaurora.org
To:     Doug Anderson <dianders@...gle.com>
Cc:     Ulf Hansson <ulf.hansson@...aro.org>,
        Sahitya Tummala <stummala@...eaurora.org>,
        Sayali Lokhande <sayalil@...eaurora.org>,
        Veerabhadrarao Badiganti <vbadigan@...eaurora.org>,
        cang@...eaurora.org, ppvk@...eaurora.org,
        Adrian Hunter <adrian.hunter@...el.com>,
        Rob Herring <robh+dt@...nel.org>, linux-mmc@...r.kernel.org,
        Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        DTML <devicetree@...r.kernel.org>,
        Asutosh Das <asutoshd@...eaurora.org>,
        Evan Green <evgreen@...omium.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC 0/6] mmc: Add clock scaling support for mmc driver

Hi,

On 2019-11-15 23:09, Doug Anderson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 3:13 AM Ram Prakash Gupta
> <rampraka@...eaurora.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Each time the triggering point for scaling up/down is hit, then a
>> series of commands needs to be sent to the card, including running the
>> tuning procedure. The point is, for sure, this doesn't come for free,
>> both from a latency point of view, but also from an energy cost point
>> of view. So, whether this really improves the behaviour, seems like
>> very use case sensitive, right!?
>> 
>> With clock scaling support device mode would be switched between low 
>> speed
>> (hs50 or ddr52) and high speed mode(hs400 enhanced strobe).
> 
> I haven't read the patches, but just from this description it feels
> like the wrong way to go.  From my understanding if you're running at
> HS400 then you can run the card at any speed between 0 and 200 MHz.  I
> see no reason why you'd want to switch modes.  Just stay at HS400 and
> slow down the clock, right?  Then you can keep the "Enhanced Strobe"
> which makes everything more reliable.
> 
> If you're running on a system that doesn't have enhanced strobe you
> _should_ still be able to switch clock speeds without switching modes
> since the spec has just a _maximum_ clock frequency for each mode, so
> HS200, DDR50, etc should all be able to run at slower speeds without
> an official mode switch.  You also shouldn't have to re-tune.  Tuning
> is nothing magical, it's just trying to find the delay between sending
> a pulse on the clock line and when you read the data sent by the other
> side.  Assuming your tuning delay is natively represented in "phase
> offset", you can convert that back to an actual delay and then back to
> "phase offset" for the new clock.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have seek input from hardware team on this.
I will get back on this.

> 
> To further argue against switching modes, I would also note that for
> SD cards switching to a slower speed mode may result in an increase in
> IO voltage, which seems like it could be bad for power consumption?
> 

For SDCard clk scaling, driver is not switching any mode. So this should
not affect any use case.

> 
>> And from energy point of view, this feature is only helping in saving 
>> energy
>> and not adding any energy penalty. And we have observed a considerable 
>> amount
>> of power saving(data shared in mid) when playing 1080p video playback 
>> with
>> clock scaling feature support.
> 
> I am slightly baffled about why this would save energy unless it
> allows you to lower the voltage to the controller.  I know you _can_
> sometimes lower the voltage to the controller on Qualcomm parts, but
> you are arguing that it is useful even on systems that can't lower the
> voltage.  That feels slightly questionable.  I would expect that
> racing to idle (with the right tuning parameters) would be a better
> way to go.

Sorry, if my explanation was misleading before. MMC driver is not 
changing
card/controller voltage but by lowering clock frequency of card and
controller brings down _bus_ and _system_ voltage corners of device 
which
helps in saving power consumption.

> 
> As a specific example, let's imagine we want to transfer 1000 MB of
> data and we have 20 seconds with which to do it.  We can achieve this
> by transferring 50 MB/s for the whole 20 seconds.  Alternatively, we
> could transfer at 400 MB/s 2.5 seconds and then fully power gate the
> eMMC for the next 17.5 seconds.
> 
> In that example, I'd wonder ask is more power efficient.  Presumably
> the 2nd.  This is the whole "race to idle" concept as I understand it.
> 
> The "race to idle" is talked about a lot in the context of CPU
> frequency decisions.  Presumably you'll point out that "race to idle"
> is NOT the right thing to do for choosing a CPU frequency.  As I
> understand it, this is primarily true because we need to raise the CPU
> voltage to run at faster speeds.  This would lead me to believe that
> the only case you'd want to do frequency scaling like this is if it
> allows you to lower the voltage provided to the eMMC controller.  As
> you said, for Qualcomm it _does_ allow you to do this, but most other
> SoCs don't.  ...so unless there's a flaw in my logic (always
> possible!) this patch series should be amended to say it's only useful
> if it allows you to down-volt the controller.
> 
> Just to think a little bit more about my logic: of course, you might
> argue that we can't just do a 1000 MB data transfer.  We can break
> that down into two cases:
> 
> a) For writing, presumably the data is produced over time and you
> don't want to buffer the whole 1000 MB and delay 17.5 seconds before
> you start writing.  ...but presumably you could do _some_ buffering
> and then break things into chunks where you ungate the clock to the
> card, write a chunk out, and then re-gate the clock.  There will
> obviously be some overhead with each clock gate/ungate, but
> (hopefully) not too much.  ...and there will be time when data is in
> RAM and not on the disk so you'd worry about power failure, but if you
> want to get data on the disk ASAP why are you scaling the clock (and
> thus delaying the data from getting to the disk) at all?  Maybe some
> math?  How long does it take to ungate/gate the clocks.  1 ms?  It's
> just flipping a bit, right?  ...and does assuming we can allocate a 40
> MB write buffer seem sane?  So we eat 1 ms to ungate, 100 ms to
> transfer 40 MB, 1 ms to gate.  Compared to transferring at 50 MB/sec
> (w/ no gating), we'd transfer the same 40 MB in 800 ms.  So we either
> keep the clock on at 50 MHz for 800 ms or we keep it on at 200 MHz for
> 102 ms and gate it for 698 ms.
> 

"race to idle" helps but this feature was implemented with focus on 
video
playback case, where data transfer request to mmc driver spans over 
entire
playback time of video. In this case, running device in low speed mode 
helps.

> b) If you're reading data then hopefully the system has some sort of
> readahead going on.  In the "video playback" case the system should
> have no problem predicting that if you've just read bytes
> 1,000,000,000 - 2,000,000,000 of a file over the last 10 seconds that
> you're likely to keep reading the same file.  Presumably it wouldn't
> be totally insane to read 40 MB ahead of time and then we can do the
> same math as a).  If 40 MB is too much for readahead, then shrink it
> and redo the math.  Even with much smaller numbers the "race to idle"
> wins because gating / ungating clocks is fast.  ...or do you know some
> reason why gating / ungating clocks needs to be slow?  If so, how
> slow?
> 

I have performed one experiment by increasing read ahead size, but that 
is
not helping. And I don't observe much difference in data request pattern
generated in video playback case.

> 
>> Test case used are 1080p and 4k video playback use case. Please find 
>> below
>> test case information and power impact data. In both the below video 
>> playback
>> cases, a considerable amount of power savings can be observed with 
>> clock scaling
>> feature.
>> 
>> Use cases Delta at battery (mA) Power impact %
>> 30 fps at HD 1080p decode 20 Mbps 10 mA 11%
>> 30 fps at UHD 8b H.264 42 Mbps 20.93 mA 19%
> 
> Numbers like this are exactly what is needed to justify your patch
> series.  ...but I'd be super curious to how it would compare to:
> 
> 1) Tuning the runtime PM auto-suspend delay.  If you have your
> auto-suspend delay set wrong (like 500 ms) then all the math above is
> totally wrong.  We'll keep clocking at 400 MHz needlessly even though
> there is no data to transfer.  If autosuspend is just gating clocks
> then it feels like you could set it to 1 ms, or 10 ms.  NOTE: if
> autosuspend for you is something more major (fully turning off power
> rails to the eMMC) then maybe you need another level where you just
> turn off the clocks.  Seems like we could find some way to make that
> work.

Gating / Ungating can be fine tuned to help bring down power consumption
too. I will share power numbers with tuned parameters in next 
communication.

> 
> 2) Tuning any readached mechanism in your system.  If your system
> somehow does zero readahead then obviously all my arguments don't work
> for reads.  ...but why would you not have readahead?
> 
> 3) Tuning any write buffering in your system.  Same argument as #2.

This feature is specific to video playback use case from storage device.
Not sure, which buffering can be tuned. Can you point out any buffering 
used?

> 
> 4) Making sure that when the MMC card clock is gated that you request
> the lowest voltage level for the controller (and set the controller's
> bus clock to the lowest level since it's not doing anything).
> 
> 
> I would also be very interested to know how much of those savings are
> achieved if you keep the voltage to the MMC controller the same.  In
> other words do something that arbitrarily keeps the MMC controller
> requesting the same voltage level from the rest of the system and then
> do your power measurements.  How much do your savings change?
> 
> 
> I will also note that aggressive clock gating is exactly what the
> dw_mmc controller does automatically (except for SDIO, but that's a
> different story).  Seeing that the controller itself can stop the
> clock in dw_mmc gives further credence that gating / ungating the
> clock is a very lightweight operation and 1 ms is probably an
> over-estimation of how long it takes.
> 
> 
> I guess one very last note is that I spent most of the time above
> arguing that the clock scaling concept is probably not useful for any
> SoCs where you can't adjust the voltage provided to the MMC
> controller.  That doesn't necessarily mean that your patch series is
> useful for SoCs where you can.  Specifically you'd need to do math to
> see how much more power the MMC controller takes at the higher
> voltage.  Then you can calculate a "perf per watt".  If the watts to
> transfer data at 400 MB/s aren't 8 times more than the watts to
> transfer at 50 MB/s then that's a ding against your idea.  You'd also
> don't have a dedicated voltage rail, right?  So you'd have to see what
> percentage of the time the MMC controller was the only thing in the
> system that was requesting the higher voltage.  If it happened that
> something else in the system was keeping the voltage higher anyway
> then it would be better for you to run faster and race to idle.
> Really I guess the case you're most worried about is if the MMC
> controller is causing other components in the system to be at a higher
> voltage point (and thus take up more power)...
> 

Rail is not dedicated for eMMC device. So during video playback its mmc
votes only, which keeps device in higher voltage corners. So for a three
hours of a video playback, power consumption due to mmc vote would be 
quite
considerable.

> 
> Hope that all makes sense.  I can read the patches themselves if
> needed--everything from above is just based on your cover letter and
> discussion with Ulf.  ;-)
> 
> 
> -Doug

Thanks,
Ram

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