Message-ID: <CAPnjgZ2tQwvpfgGzoxVhgLPSDvq4qD=2aPFR+CvsDoDCAE_PpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Wed, 27 Oct 2021 08:09:24 -0600
From:   Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org>
To:     Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org>
Cc:     Mark Kettenis <mark.kettenis@...all.nl>,
        Devicetree Discuss <devicetree@...r.kernel.org>,
        Tom Rini <trini@...sulko.com>,
        U-Boot Mailing List <u-boot@...ts.denx.de>,
        lk <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] dt-bindings: u-boot: Add an initial binding for config

Hi Rob,

On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 20:37, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 9:39 AM Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 02:51, Mark Kettenis <mark.kettenis@...all.nl> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org>
> > > > Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:44:41 -0600
> > > >
> > > > Hi Rob,
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 at 16:26, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:33 AM Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "
> > > > > > Hi Rob,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 at 09:05, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 8:41 AM Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Rob,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 13:30, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 03, 2021 at 12:51:53PM -0600, Simon Glass wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > U-Boot makes use of the devicetree for its driver model. Devices are bound
> > > > > > > > > > based on the hardware description in the devicetree.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Since U-Boot is not an operating system, it has no command line or user
> > > > > > > > > > space to provide configuration and policy information. This must be made
> > > > > > > > > > available in some other way.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Therefore U-Boot uses devicetree for configuration and run-time control
> > > > > > > > > > and has done for approximately 9 years. This works extremely well in the
> > > > > > > > > > project and is very flexible. However the bindings have never been
> > > > > > > > > > incorporated in the devicetree bindings in the Linux tree. This could be
> > > > > > > > > > a good time to start this work as we try to create standard bindings for
> > > > > > > > > > communicating between firmware components.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Add an initial binding for this node, covering just the config node, which
> > > > > > > > > > is the main requirement. It is similar in concept to the chosen node, but
> > > > > > > > > > used for passing information between firmware components, instead of from
> > > > > > > > > > firmware to operating system.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org>
> > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > > > > > Please be kind in your review. Some words about why this is needed are
> > > > > > > > > > included in the description in config.yaml file.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The last attempt to add just one property needed by U-Boot went into the
> > > > > > > > > > weeds 6 years ago, with what I see as confusion about the role of the
> > > > > > > > > > chosen node in devicetree[1].
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am trying again in the hope of reaching resolution rather than just
> > > > > > > > > > going around in circles with the 'devicetree is a hardware description'
> > > > > > > > > > argument :-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Quoting from the introduction to latest devicetree spec[2]:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > To initialize and boot a computer system, various software components
> > > > > > > > > > interact. Firmware might perform low-level initialization of the system
> > > > > > > > > > hardware before passing control to software such as an operating system,
> > > > > > > > > > bootloader, or  hypervisor. Bootloaders and hypervisors can, in turn,
> > > > > > > > > > load and transfer control to operating systems. Standard, consistent
> > > > > > > > > > interfaces and conventions facilitate the interactions between these
> > > > > > > > > > software components. In this document the term boot program is used to
> > > > > > > > > > generically refer to a software component that initializes the system
> > > > > > > > > > state and executes another software component referred to as a client
> > > > > > > > > > program.
> > > > > > > > > > <<<
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This clearly envisages multiple software components in the firmware
> > > > > > > > > > domain and in fact that is the case today. They need some way to
> > > > > > > > > > communicate configuration data such as memory setup, runtime-feature
> > > > > > > > > > selection and developer conveniences. Devicetree seems ideal, at least for
> > > > > > > > > > components where the performance / memory requirements of devicetree are
> > > > > > > > > > affordable.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I hope that the Linux community (which owns the devicetree bindings) finds
> > > > > > > > > > this initiative valuable and acceptable.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Owns? I'm having a sale and can make you a good offer. Buy 1 binding,
> > > > > > > > > get 2000 free. :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, it's the price of that first binding that surely puts everyone off.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > (sorry for sitting on this for a week, my spam filter doesn't like
> > > > > > > > some mailing lists and I'm working on it)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > [1] https://lists.denx.de/pipermail/u-boot/2015-July/218585.html
> > > > > > > > > > [2] https://github.com/devicetree-org/devicetree-specification/releases/tag/v0.3
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >  .../devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml    | 137 ++++++++++++++++++
> > > > > > > > > >  1 file changed, 137 insertions(+)
> > > > > > > > > >  create mode 100644 Documentation/devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Might as well put this into dt-schema rather than the kernel. But might
> > > > > > > > > get more review here first.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > OK, so does that mean a PR to https://github.com/robherring/dt-schema
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wrong one: https://github.com/devicetree-org/dt-schema
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I need to update the readme there for the old one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK thanks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > or is there a mailing list for it? I think I am missing some
> > > > > > > > understanding here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can send a PR or to a DT mailing list, but the mail list will get
> > > > > > > more reviews (hopefully). devicetree-spec is better than devicetree as
> > > > > > > it is not a firehose.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml b/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml
> > > > > > > > > > new file mode 100644
> > > > > > > > > > index 00000000000000..336577a17fdf5a
> > > > > > > > > > --- /dev/null
> > > > > > > > > > +++ b/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml
> > > > > > > > > > @@ -0,0 +1,137 @@
> > > > > > > > > > +# SPDX-License-Identifier: (GPL-2.0 OR BSD-2-Clause)
> > > > > > > > > > +%YAML 1.2
> > > > > > > > > > +---
> > > > > > > > > > +$id: http://devicetree.org/schemas/u-boot/config.yaml#
> > > > > > > > > > +$schema: http://devicetree.org/meta-schemas/core.yaml#
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +title: U-Boot configuration node
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +maintainers:
> > > > > > > > > > +  - Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org>
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +description: |
> > > > > > > > > > +  The config node does not represent a real device, but serves as a place
> > > > > > > > > > +  for passing data between firmware elements, like memory maps. Data in the
> > > > > > > > > > +  config node does not represent the hardware. It is ignored by operating
> > > > > > > > > > +  systems.
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +  Purpose of config node
> > > > > > > > > > +  ----------------------
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +  A common problem with firmware is that many builds are needed to deal with the
> > > > > > > > > > +  slight variations between different, related models. For example, one model
> > > > > > > > > > +  may have a TPM and another may not. Devicetree provides an excellent solution
> > > > > > > > > > +  to this problem, in that the devicetree to actually use on a platform can be
> > > > > > > > > > +  injected in the factory based on which model is being manufactured at the time.
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +  A related problem causing build proliferation is dealing with the differences
> > > > > > > > > > +  between development firmware, developer-friendly firmware (e.g. with all
> > > > > > > > > > +  security features present but with the ability to access the command line),
> > > > > > > > > > +  test firmware (which runs tests used in the factory), final production
> > > > > > > > > > +  firmware (before signing), signed firmware (where the signatures have been
> > > > > > > > > > +  inserted) and the like. Ideally all or most of these should use the same
> > > > > > > > > > +  U-Boot build, with just some options to determine the features available. For
> > > > > > > > > > +  example, being able to control whether the UART console or JTAG are available,
> > > > > > > > > > +  on any image, is a great debugging aid.
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +  When the firmware consists of multiple parts (various U-Boot phases, TF-A,
> > > > > > > > > > +  OP-TEE), it is helpful that all operate the same way at runtime, regardless of
> > > > > > > > > > +  how they were built. This can be achieved by passing the runtime configuration
> > > > > > > > > > +  (e.g. 'enable UART console', 'here are your public keys') along the chain
> > > > > > > > > > +  through each firmware stage. It is frustrating to have to replicate a bug on
> > > > > > > > > > +  production firmware which does happen on developer firmware, because they are
> > > > > > > > > > +  completely different builds.
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +  The config node provides useful functionality for this. It allows the different
> > > > > > > > > > +  controls to be 'factored out' of the U-Boot binary, so they can be controlled
> > > > > > > > > > +  separately from the initial source-code build. The node can be easily updated
> > > > > > > > > > +  by a build or factory tool and can control various features in U-Boot. It is
> > > > > > > > > > +  similar in concept to a Kconfig option, except that it can be changed after
> > > > > > > > > > +  U-Boot is built.
> > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > +  The config node is similar in concept to /chosen (see chosen.txt) except that
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > chosen.yaml now (in dt-schema).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > OK
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > +  it is for passing information *into* and *between) firmware components,
> > > > > > > > > > +  instead of from firmware to the Operating System. Also, while operating
> > > > > > > > > > +  systems typically have a (sometimes extremely long) command line, U-Boot does
> > > > > > > > > > +  not support this, except with sandbox. The devicetree provides a more
> > > > > > > > > > +  structured approach in any case.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What about having a /chosen/u-boot/ node instead?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What is your rationale for doing that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Simply that /chosen is where the s/w configuration for the next stage
> > > > > > > consuming the DT goes. Also, we already have bootcmd defined in chosen
> > > > > > > and don't need it in a whole other place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK I see.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The spec says "The /chosen node does not represent a real device in
> > > > > > the system but describes parameters chosen or specified by the system
> > > > > > firmware at run time. It shall be a child of the root node."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To my reading, this is not the same thing. I would prefer something like:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The /xxx node does not represent a real device in the system but
> > > > > > describes parameters used by the system firmware at run time. It shall
> > > > > > be a child of the root node."
> > > > >
> > > > > The wording is from simpler times... We can reword it however we need.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, as is the /chosen node, I think. So perhaps we should be able to
> > > > expand to other nodes as needed!
> > >
> > > Maybe, but it we probably should follow existing practice.
> > >
> > > The whole DT thing came out of OpenFirmware.  The OpenFirmware
> > > standard defines a /options node with various options that control how
> > > the firmware behaves.  It is defined in the IEEE 1275 standard:
> > >
> > >   https://www.openfirmware.info/data/docs/of1275.pdf
> > >
> > > The way this behaves on Sun and (PowerPC) machines is quite similar
> > > how environment variables work in U-Boot.
> >
> > I don't see much semantic difference between choices and options, but
> > I would be quite happy to use 'options' for firmware. In fact it seems
> > that 'options' serves the same purpose as the 'config' node I had in
> > mind. We still need to have subnodes for project-specific things
> > though.
>
> /options with child node per component is fine with me. There's
> nothing in the way of established or documented usage that I have
> found. Some old DTs I have have /options but none of it looks like
> anything we'd care about.

OK I will respin this along those lines, keeping the scope otherwise
the same. There are also pointers in this thread to how we might
handle standardising things across multiple firmware components, so
that is something I will keep in mind also.

Regards,
Simon

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