Message-ID: <CAPnjgZ21bd4GJrZTNVUF+NveP7LNRv-QK4H7TYJ+L1jQAuyE4A@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:03:27 -0600
From:   Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org>
To:     Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org>
Cc:     Mark Kettenis <mark.kettenis@...all.nl>,
        Devicetree Discuss <devicetree@...r.kernel.org>,
        Tom Rini <trini@...sulko.com>,
        U-Boot Mailing List <u-boot@...ts.denx.de>,
        lk <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] dt-bindings: u-boot: Add an initial binding for config

Hi Rob,

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 08:09, Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 20:37, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 9:39 AM Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Mark,
> > >
> > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 02:51, Mark Kettenis <mark.kettenis@...all.nl> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org>
> > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:44:41 -0600
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Rob,
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 at 16:26, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:33 AM Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "
> > > > > > > Hi Rob,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 at 09:05, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >  On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 8:41 AM Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Rob,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 13:30, Rob Herring <robh@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 03, 2021 at 12:51:53PM -0600, Simon Glass wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > U-Boot makes use of the devicetree for its driver model. Devices are bound
> > > > > > > > > > > based on the hardware description in the devicetree.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Since U-Boot is not an operating system, it has no command line or user
> > > > > > > > > > > space to provide configuration and policy information. This must be made
> > > > > > > > > > > available in some other way.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Therefore U-Boot uses devicetree for configuration and run-time control
> > > > > > > > > > > and has done for approximately 9 years. This works extremely well in the
> > > > > > > > > > > project and is very flexible. However the bindings have never been
> > > > > > > > > > > incorporated in the devicetree bindings in the Linux tree. This could be
> > > > > > > > > > > a good time to start this work as we try to create standard bindings for
> > > > > > > > > > > communicating between firmware components.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Add an initial binding for this node, covering just the config node, which
> > > > > > > > > > > is the main requirement. It is similar in concept to the chosen node, but
> > > > > > > > > > > used for passing information between firmware components, instead of from
> > > > > > > > > > > firmware to operating system.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > > > > > > Please be kind in your review. Some words about why this is needed are
> > > > > > > > > > > included in the description in config.yaml file.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The last attempt to add just one property needed by U-Boot went into the
> > > > > > > > > > > weeds 6 years ago, with what I see as confusion about the role of the
> > > > > > > > > > > chosen node in devicetree[1].
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am trying again in the hope of reaching resolution rather than just
> > > > > > > > > > > going around in circles with the 'devicetree is a hardware description'
> > > > > > > > > > > argument :-)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Quoting from the introduction to latest devicetree spec[2]:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > To initialize and boot a computer system, various software components
> > > > > > > > > > > interact. Firmware might perform low-level initialization of the system
> > > > > > > > > > > hardware before passing control to software such as an operating system,
> > > > > > > > > > > bootloader, or  hypervisor. Bootloaders and hypervisors can, in turn,
> > > > > > > > > > > load and transfer control to operating systems. Standard, consistent
> > > > > > > > > > > interfaces and conventions facilitate the interactions between these
> > > > > > > > > > > software components. In this document the term boot program is used to
> > > > > > > > > > > generically refer to a software component that initializes the system
> > > > > > > > > > > state and executes another software component referred to as a client
> > > > > > > > > > > program.
> > > > > > > > > > > <<<
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > This clearly envisages multiple software components in the firmware
> > > > > > > > > > > domain and in fact that is the case today. They need some way to
> > > > > > > > > > > communicate configuration data such as memory setup, runtime-feature
> > > > > > > > > > > selection and developer conveniences. Devicetree seems ideal, at least for
> > > > > > > > > > > components where the performance / memory requirements of devicetree are
> > > > > > > > > > > affordable.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I hope that the Linux community (which owns the devicetree bindings) finds
> > > > > > > > > > > this initiative valuable and acceptable.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Owns? I'm having a sale and can make you a good offer. Buy 1 binding,
> > > > > > > > > > get 2000 free. :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, it's the price of that first binding that surely puts everyone off.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (sorry for sitting on this for a week, my spam filter doesn't like
> > > > > > > > > some mailing lists and I'm working on it)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://lists.denx.de/pipermail/u-boot/2015-July/218585.html
> > > > > > > > > > > [2] https://github.com/devicetree-org/devicetree-specification/releases/tag/v0.3
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >  .../devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml    | 137 ++++++++++++++++++
> > > > > > > > > > >  1 file changed, 137 insertions(+)
> > > > > > > > > > >  create mode 100644 Documentation/devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Might as well put this into dt-schema rather than the kernel. But might
> > > > > > > > > > get more review here first.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > OK, so does that mean a PR to https://github.com/robherring/dt-schema
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wrong one: https://github.com/devicetree-org/dt-schema
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I need to update the readme there for the old one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK thanks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > or is there a mailing list for it? I think I am missing some
> > > > > > > > > understanding here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You can send a PR or to a DT mailing list, but the mail list will get
> > > > > > > > more reviews (hopefully). devicetree-spec is better than devicetree as
> > > > > > > > it is not a firehose.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml b/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml
> > > > > > > > > > > new file mode 100644
> > > > > > > > > > > index 00000000000000..336577a17fdf5a
> > > > > > > > > > > --- /dev/null
> > > > > > > > > > > +++ b/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/u-boot/config.yaml
> > > > > > > > > > > @@ -0,0 +1,137 @@
> > > > > > > > > > > +# SPDX-License-Identifier: (GPL-2.0 OR BSD-2-Clause)
> > > > > > > > > > > +%YAML 1.2
> > > > > > > > > > > +---
> > > > > > > > > > > +$id: http://devicetree.org/schemas/u-boot/config.yaml#
> > > > > > > > > > > +$schema: http://devicetree.org/meta-schemas/core.yaml#
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +title: U-Boot configuration node
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +maintainers:
> > > > > > > > > > > +  - Simon Glass <sjg@...omium.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +description: |
> > > > > > > > > > > +  The config node does not represent a real device, but serves as a place
> > > > > > > > > > > +  for passing data between firmware elements, like memory maps. Data in the
> > > > > > > > > > > +  config node does not represent the hardware. It is ignored by operating
> > > > > > > > > > > +  systems.
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +  Purpose of config node
> > > > > > > > > > > +  ----------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +  A common problem with firmware is that many builds are needed to deal with the
> > > > > > > > > > > +  slight variations between different, related models. For example, one model
> > > > > > > > > > > +  may have a TPM and another may not. Devicetree provides an excellent solution
> > > > > > > > > > > +  to this problem, in that the devicetree to actually use on a platform can be
> > > > > > > > > > > +  injected in the factory based on which model is being manufactured at the time.
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +  A related problem causing build proliferation is dealing with the differences
> > > > > > > > > > > +  between development firmware, developer-friendly firmware (e.g. with all
> > > > > > > > > > > +  security features present but with the ability to access the command line),
> > > > > > > > > > > +  test firmware (which runs tests used in the factory), final production
> > > > > > > > > > > +  firmware (before signing), signed firmware (where the signatures have been
> > > > > > > > > > > +  inserted) and the like. Ideally all or most of these should use the same
> > > > > > > > > > > +  U-Boot build, with just some options to determine the features available. For
> > > > > > > > > > > +  example, being able to control whether the UART console or JTAG are available,
> > > > > > > > > > > +  on any image, is a great debugging aid.
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +  When the firmware consists of multiple parts (various U-Boot phases, TF-A,
> > > > > > > > > > > +  OP-TEE), it is helpful that all operate the same way at runtime, regardless of
> > > > > > > > > > > +  how they were built. This can be achieved by passing the runtime configuration
> > > > > > > > > > > +  (e.g. 'enable UART console', 'here are your public keys') along the chain
> > > > > > > > > > > +  through each firmware stage. It is frustrating to have to replicate a bug on
> > > > > > > > > > > +  production firmware which does happen on developer firmware, because they are
> > > > > > > > > > > +  completely different builds.
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +  The config node provides useful functionality for this. It allows the different
> > > > > > > > > > > +  controls to be 'factored out' of the U-Boot binary, so they can be controlled
> > > > > > > > > > > +  separately from the initial source-code build. The node can be easily updated
> > > > > > > > > > > +  by a build or factory tool and can control various features in U-Boot. It is
> > > > > > > > > > > +  similar in concept to a Kconfig option, except that it can be changed after
> > > > > > > > > > > +  U-Boot is built.
> > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > +  The config node is similar in concept to /chosen (see chosen.txt) except that
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > chosen.yaml now (in dt-schema).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > OK
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > +  it is for passing information *into* and *between) firmware components,
> > > > > > > > > > > +  instead of from firmware to the Operating System. Also, while operating
> > > > > > > > > > > +  systems typically have a (sometimes extremely long) command line, U-Boot does
> > > > > > > > > > > +  not support this, except with sandbox. The devicetree provides a more
> > > > > > > > > > > +  structured approach in any case.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What about having a /chosen/u-boot/ node instead?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What is your rationale for doing that?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Simply that /chosen is where the s/w configuration for the next stage
> > > > > > > > consuming the DT goes. Also, we already have bootcmd defined in chosen
> > > > > > > > and don't need it in a whole other place.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK I see.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The spec says "The /chosen node does not represent a real device in
> > > > > > > the system but describes parameters chosen or specified by the system
> > > > > > > firmware at run time. It shall be a child of the root node."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To my reading, this is not the same thing. I would prefer something like:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The /xxx node does not represent a real device in the system but
> > > > > > > describes parameters used by the system firmware at run time. It shall
> > > > > > > be a child of the root node."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The wording is from simpler times... We can reword it however we need.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, as is the /chosen node, I think. So perhaps we should be able to
> > > > > expand to other nodes as needed!
> > > >
> > > > Maybe, but it we probably should follow existing practice.
> > > >
> > > > The whole DT thing came out of OpenFirmware.  The OpenFirmware
> > > > standard defines a /options node with various options that control how
> > > > the firmware behaves.  It is defined in the IEEE 1275 standard:
> > > >
> > > >   https://www.openfirmware.info/data/docs/of1275.pdf
> > > >
> > > > The way this behaves on Sun and (PowerPC) machines is quite similar
> > > > how environment variables work in U-Boot.
> > >
> > > I don't see much semantic difference between choices and options, but
> > > I would be quite happy to use 'options' for firmware. In fact it seems
> > > that 'options' serves the same purpose as the 'config' node I had in
> > > mind. We still need to have subnodes for project-specific things
> > > though.
> >
> > /options with child node per component is fine with me. There's
> > nothing in the way of established or documented usage that I have
> > found. Some old DTs I have have /options but none of it looks like
> > anything we'd care about.
>
> OK I will respin this along those lines, keeping the scope otherwise
> the same. There are also pointers in this thread to how we might
> handle standardising things across multiple firmware components, so
> that is something I will keep in mind also.

In case you didn't see it, I sent a PR:

https://github.com/devicetree-org/dt-schema/pull/62

Regards,
Simon

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