Message-ID: <CAPDyKFrFdt_U7By_bqk4DBHxCBLpDe00aRb6P6BmwR4MYM2OmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Wed, 1 Dec 2021 16:22:26 +0100
From:   Ulf Hansson <ulf.hansson@...aro.org>
To:     "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@...nel.org>
Cc:     "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...ysocki.net>,
        Alan Stern <stern@...land.harvard.edu>,
        Linux PM <linux-pm@...r.kernel.org>,
        Kevin Hilman <khilman@...nel.org>,
        Maulik Shah <mkshah@...eaurora.org>,
        Linux ARM <linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org>,
        Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] PM: runtime: Allow rpm_resume() to succeed when runtime
 PM is disabled

On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 14:49, Rafael J. Wysocki <rafael@...nel.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 10:02 AM Ulf Hansson <ulf.hansson@...aro.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 at 18:26, Rafael J. Wysocki <rafael@...nel.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 5:41 PM Ulf Hansson <ulf.hansson@...aro.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 at 14:02, Rafael J. Wysocki <rafael@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 12:58 PM Ulf Hansson <ulf.hansson@...aro.org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Am I thinking correctly that this is mostly about working around the
> > > > > > > > > > > > limitations of pm_runtime_force_suspend()?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No, this isn't related at all.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The cpuidle-psci driver doesn't have PM callbacks, thus using
> > > > > > > > > > > pm_runtime_force_suspend() would not work here.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Just wanted to send a ping on this to see if we can come to a
> > > > > > > > > > conclusion. Or maybe we did? :-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think in the end, what slightly bothers me, is that the behavior is
> > > > > > > > > > a bit inconsistent. Although, maybe it's the best we can do.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've been thinking about this and it looks like we can do better, but
> > > > > > > > > instead of talking about this I'd rather send a patch.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Alright.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was thinking along the lines of make similar changes for
> > > > > > > > rpm_idle|suspend(). That would make the behaviour even more
> > > > > > > > consistent, I think.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Perhaps that's what you have in mind? :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, not exactly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The idea is to add another counter (called restrain_depth in the patch)
> > > > > > > to prevent rpm_resume() from running the callback when that is potentially
> > > > > > > problematic.  With that, it is possible to actually distinguish devices
> > > > > > > with PM-runtime enabled and it allows the PM-runtime status to be checked
> > > > > > > when it is still known to be meaningful.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hmm, I don't quite understand the benefit of introducing a new flag
> > > > > > for this. rpm_resume() already checks the disable_depth to understand
> > > > > > when it's safe to invoke the callback. Maybe there is a reason why
> > > > > > that isn't sufficient?
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem is that disable_depth > 0 may very well mean that runtime
> > > > > PM has not been enabled at all for the given device which IMO is a
> > > > > problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > As it stands, it is necessary to make assumptions, like disable_depth
> > > > > == 1 meaning that runtime PM is really enabled, but the PM core has
> > > > > disabled it temporarily, which is somewhat questionable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another problem with disabling is that it causes rpm_resume() to fail
> > > > > even if the status is RPM_ACTIVE and it has to do that exactly because
> > > > > it cannot know why runtime PM has been disabled.  If it has never been
> > > > > enabled, rpm_resume() must fail, but if it has been disabled
> > > > > temporarily, rpm_resume() may return 1 when the status is RPM_ACTIVE.
> > > > >
> > > > > The new count allows the "enabled in general, but temporarily disabled
> > > > > at the moment" to be handled cleanly.
> > > >
> > > > My overall comment is that I fail to understand why we need to
> > > > distinguish between these two cases. To me, it shouldn't really
> > > > matter, *why* runtime PM is (or have been) disabled for the device.
> > >
> > > It matters if you want to trust the status, because "disabled" means
> > > "the status doesn't matter".
> >
> > Well, that doesn't really match how the runtime PM interface is being
> > used today.
>
> Well, I clearly disagree.

Alright, then we can agree to disagree. :-)

>
> > For example, we have a whole bunch of helper functions, allowing us to
> > update and check the runtime PM state of the device, even when the
> > disable_depth > 0. Some functions, like pm_runtime_set_active() for
> > example, even take parents and device-links into account.
>
> That's true, but that's for a purpose.
>
> If runtime PM becomes enabled after using pm_runtime_set_active(), the
> status should better be consistent with the settings of the parent
> etc.
>
> > >
> > > If you want the status to stay meaningful, but prevent callbacks from
> > > running, you need something else.
> > >
> > > > The important point is that the default state for a device is
> > > > RPM_SUSPENDED and someone has moved into RPM_ACTIVE, for whatever
> > > > reason. That should be sufficient to allow rpm_resume() to return '1'
> > > > when disable_depth > 0, shouldn't it?
> > >
> > > No, because there is no rule by which the status of devices with
> > > PM-runtime disabled must be RPM_SUSPENDED.
> >
> > That's not what I was trying to say.
> >
> > The initial/default runtime PM state for a device is RPM_SUSPENDED,
> > which is being set in pm_runtime_init(). Although, I agree that it
> > can't be trusted that this state actually reflects the state of the
> > HW, it's still a valid state for the device from a runtime PM point of
> > view.
>
> No, it is not.  It's just the default.
>
> > However, and more importantly, if the state has moved to RPM_ACTIVE,
> > someone must have deliberately moved the device into that state.
>
> Sure, but it cannot be regarded as an indication on whether or not
> runtime PM is supported and has ever been enabled for the given
> device.
>
> Again, there is no rule regarding the status value for devices with
> runtime PM disabled, either way.

If I understand correctly, that means you think the
pm_runtime_status_suspended() should really be converted to an
internal runtime PM interface, not being exported to users outside.
Right?

When it comes to the pm_runtime_active() interface, I noticed that
it's actually completely broken, as it returns "true" when runtime PM
has been disabled for the device - no matter whether the state is
RPM_ACTIVE or not. It's quite heavily used, so I guess the behaviour
is what the callers expect?

>
> > For this reason, I believe it seems reasonable to trust it, both from HW
> > point of view, but definitely also from a runtime PM point of view. If
> > not, then what should we do?
>
> Trust it only when runtime PM is enabled, ie. dev->power.disable_depth == 0.
>
> That's exactly the reason why pm_runtime_suspended() returns false if
> runtime PM is disabled for the target device and if
> pm_runtime_suspended() is called during system-wide suspend and
> resume, it is not clear how to interpret its return value.

To me, I don't think there is a problem interpreting
pm_runtime_suspended()'s return value. As you said, it tells whether
runtime PM has been enabled and whether the state is RPM_SUSPENDED.

For those that want to know the state when runtime PM has been
disabled, they can use pm_runtime_status_suspended().

What's the issue?

>
> If it returns true outside the system suspend-resume code path, that
> means "runtime PM has been enabled and the device has been
> runtime-suspended" and I want it to mean exactly the same thing during
> system-wide suspend and resume, so people don't need to wonder about
> the context in which the code is running.

Well, even if this seems nice, I wonder how useful this would be in the end.

Perhaps you have some concrete examples where this could improve things?

Kind regards
Uffe

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