linux-kernel - Re: [PATCH 00/35] Shadow stacks for userspace

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Message-ID: <87mtj1vh50.ffs@tglx>
Date:   Tue, 08 Feb 2022 10:31:39 +0100
From:   Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>
To:     Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org>,
        "Edgecombe, Rick P" <rick.p.edgecombe@...el.com>,
        "hjl.tools@...il.com" <hjl.tools@...il.com>,
        "David.Laight@...lab.com" <David.Laight@...lab.com>,
        Adrian Reber <adrian@...as.de>,
        Cyrill Gorcunov <gorcunov@...nvz.org>,
        Eugene Syromiatnikov <esyr@...hat.com>,
        Dmitry Safonov <0x7f454c46@...il.com>
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        "Syromiatnikov, Eugene" <esyr@...hat.com>,
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        "rdunlap@...radead.org" <rdunlap@...radead.org>,
        "keescook@...omium.org" <keescook@...omium.org>,
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Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/35] Shadow stacks for userspace

On Mon, Feb 07 2022 at 17:31, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> So this leaves altshadowstack.  If we want to allow userspace to handle 
> a shstk overflow, I think we need altshadowstack.  And I can easily 
> imagine signal handling in a coroutine or user-threading evironment (Go? 
> UMCG or whatever it's called?) wanting this.  As noted, this obnoxious 
> Andy person didn't like putting any shstk-related extensions in the FPU 
> state.
>
> For better or for worse, altshadowstack is (I think) fundamentally a new 
> API.  No amount of ucontext magic is going to materialize an entire 
> shadow stack out of nowhere when someone calls sigaltstack().  So the 
> questions are: should we support altshadowstack from day one and, if so, 
> what should it look like?

I think we should support them from day one.

> So I don't have a complete or even almost complete design in mind, but I 
> think we do need to make a conscious decision either to design this 
> right or to skip it for v1.

Skipping it might create a fundamental design fail situation as it might
require changes to the shadow stack signal handling in general which
becomes a nightmare once a non-altstack API is exposed.

> As for CRIU, I don't think anyone really expects a new kernel, running 
> new userspace that takes advantage of features in the new kernel, to 
> work with old CRIU.

Yes, CRIU needs updates, but what ensures that CRIU managed user space
does not use SHSTK if CRIU is not updated yet?

> Upgrading to a SHSTK kernel should still allow using CRIU with
> non-SHSTK userspace, but I don't see how it's possible for CRIU to
> handle SHSTK without updates.  We should certainly do our best to make
> CRIU's life easy, though.

Handling CRIU with SHSTK enabled has to be part of the overall design
otherwise we'll either end up with horrible hacks or with a requirement
to change the V1 UAPI....

Thanks,

        tglx