linux-kernel - Re: Stockholm syndrome with Linux wireless?

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Message-ID: <CAA93jw5ntj-V075Gwm=UzML5VcQo9Tb2T+9jtV69=Grf9hieHw@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Thu, 20 Oct 2022 07:44:10 -0700
From:   Dave Taht <dave.taht@...il.com>
To:     Linus Walleij <linus.walleij@...aro.org>
Cc:     Kalle Valo <kvalo@...nel.org>,
        Alvin Šipraga <ALSI@...g-olufsen.dk>,
        Konrad Dybcio <konrad.dybcio@...ainline.org>,
        Hector Martin <marcan@...can.st>,
        "~postmarketos/upstreaming@...ts.sr.ht" 
        <~postmarketos/upstreaming@...ts.sr.ht>,
        "martin.botka@...ainline.org" <martin.botka@...ainline.org>,
        "angelogioacchino.delregno@...ainline.org" 
        <angelogioacchino.delregno@...ainline.org>,
        "marijn.suijten@...ainline.org" <marijn.suijten@...ainline.org>,
        "jamipkettunen@...ainline.org" <jamipkettunen@...ainline.org>,
        Arend van Spriel <aspriel@...il.com>,
        Franky Lin <franky.lin@...adcom.com>,
        Hante Meuleman <hante.meuleman@...adcom.com>,
        "David S. Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>,
        Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>,
        Paolo Abeni <pabeni@...hat.com>, Marek Vasut <marex@...x.de>,
        "Zhao, Jiaqing" <jiaqing.zhao@...el.com>,
        "Russell King (Oracle)" <rmk+kernel@...linux.org.uk>,
        Soon Tak Lee <soontak.lee@...ress.com>,
        "linux-wireless@...r.kernel.org" <linux-wireless@...r.kernel.org>,
        "brcm80211-dev-list.pdl@...adcom.com" 
        <brcm80211-dev-list.pdl@...adcom.com>,
        "SHA-cyfmac-dev-list@...ineon.com" <SHA-cyfmac-dev-list@...ineon.com>,
        "netdev@...r.kernel.org" <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Stockholm syndrome with Linux wireless?

On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 7:34 AM Linus Walleij <linus.walleij@...aro.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 10:20 AM Kalle Valo <kvalo@...nel.org> wrote:
> > Linus Walleij <linus.walleij@...aro.org> writes:
> > > On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 3:31 PM Alvin Šipraga <ALSI@...g-olufsen.dk> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I would also point out that the BCM4359 is equivalent to the
> > >> CYW88359/CYW89359 chipset, which we are using in some of our
> > >> products. Note that this is a Cypress chipset (identifiable by the
> > >> Version: ... (... CY) tag in the version string). But the FW Konrad is
> > >> linking appears to be for a Broadcom chipset.
> > >
> > > This just makes me think about Peter Robinsons seminar at
> > > LPC last week...
> > > "All types of wireless in Linux are terrible and why the vendors
> > > should feel bad"
> > > https://lpc.events/event/16/contributions/1278/attachments/1120/2153/wireless-issues.pdf
> >
> > Thanks, this was a good read! I'm always interested about user and
> > downstream feedback, both good and bad :) But I didn't get the Stockholm
> > syndrome comment in the end, what does he mean with that?
> >
> > BTW we have a wireless workshop in netdevconf 0x16, it would be great to
> > have there a this kind of session discussing user pain points:
>
> I can't go to Lisbon, but my personal pain points are all this:
> https://openwrt.org/meta/infobox/broadcom_wifi
> and I think I'm not alone, but I can't speak for OpenWrt.
>
> The lack of support in b43 for modern phys such as AC, i.e. the gap
> between b43 and brcmfmac, is extremely annoying and turning perfectly
> fine aftermarket devices into paperweights because there isn't even
> a way to make Broadcoms old proprietary blob work with contemporary
> kernels.

+10. I'm a big believer in coping with the present day supply problems with
modern software on perfectly good old routers. To heck with planned
obsolescence.

There are 5.2 billion cellphones turning into e-waste this year, also. The wifi
situation there is also a mess.

>
> If Broadcom could be convinced to either add support for the late b43
> variants or at least release documentation for the aftermarket that
> would be great.
>
> I suppose they might be coming to the conference so give them my best
> regards with a "please fix" tag attached.

Please! A symbol of a rotting raspberry, on their badges, or some
other gentle poke, might work wonders.

I too cannot make it to lisbon. I just burned 9 months of my life
(unpaid, mostly, but a huge thanks to NLNET for covering
half my costs) on helping fix a ton of regressions in the ath10k,
mt76, and ath9k, instead of making forward progress with new stuff.

I can call out the ax210 chips as being especially terrible still.
It's hard to test APs when the client chips
are as bad as that.

I'm very tempted to just buy a one-way ticket to lisbon, join this
wireless emotional support group there, and then find a beach to
retire on, and never think about this part of our field again.

It seems far saner to quit working on wifi and seek out something more
rewarding. Maybe there's some bright light on the horizon for less
binary blobs in wifi7?

>
> Yours,
> Linus Walleij



-- 
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC