lists.openwall.net   lists  /  announce  owl-users  owl-dev  john-users  john-dev  passwdqc-users  yescrypt  popa3d-users  /  oss-security  kernel-hardening  musl  sabotage  tlsify  passwords  /  crypt-dev  xvendor  /  Bugtraq  Full-Disclosure  linux-kernel  linux-netdev  linux-ext4  linux-hardening  linux-cve-announce  PHC 
Open Source and information security mailing list archives
 
Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.
[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]
Date:   Sat, 11 Nov 2023 09:42:15 +0530
From:   Manivannan Sadhasivam <mani@...nel.org>
To:     Can Guo <quic_cang@...cinc.com>
Cc:     Manivannan Sadhasivam <mani@...nel.org>,
        Dmitry Baryshkov <dmitry.baryshkov@...aro.org>,
        Can Guo <cang@....qualcomm.com>, bvanassche@....org,
        stanley.chu@...iatek.com, adrian.hunter@...el.com,
        beanhuo@...ron.com, avri.altman@....com, junwoo80.lee@...sung.com,
        martin.petersen@...cle.com, linux-scsi@...r.kernel.org,
        Andy Gross <agross@...nel.org>,
        Bjorn Andersson <andersson@...nel.org>,
        Konrad Dybcio <konrad.dybcio@...aro.org>,
        Vinod Koul <vkoul@...nel.org>,
        Kishon Vijay Abraham I <kishon@...nel.org>,
        "open list:ARM/QUALCOMM SUPPORT" <linux-arm-msm@...r.kernel.org>,
        "open list:GENERIC PHY FRAMEWORK" <linux-phy@...ts.infradead.org>,
        open list <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 6/7] phy: qualcomm: phy-qcom-qmp-ufs: Add High Speed
 Gear 5 support for SM8550

On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 10:40:53PM +0800, Can Guo wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/10/2023 9:18 PM, Manivannan Sadhasivam wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 12:11:46AM +0200, Dmitry Baryshkov wrote:
> > > On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 at 18:04, Manivannan Sadhasivam <mani@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 01:00:51PM +0200, Dmitry Baryshkov wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 at 12:43, Manivannan Sadhasivam <mani@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 11:40:51AM +0200, Dmitry Baryshkov wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 at 05:24, Manivannan Sadhasivam <mani@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 08, 2023 at 08:56:16AM +0200, Dmitry Baryshkov wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 at 07:49, Manivannan Sadhasivam <mani@...nel.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 07, 2023 at 03:18:09PM +0200, Dmitry Baryshkov wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 at 06:47, Can Guo <cang@....qualcomm.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Can Guo <quic_cang@...cinc.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > On SM8550, two sets of UFS PHY settings are provided, one set is to support
> > > > > > > > > > > > HS-G5, another set is to support HS-G4 and lower gears. The two sets of PHY
> > > > > > > > > > > > settings are programming different values to different registers, mixing
> > > > > > > > > > > > the two sets and/or overwriting one set with another set is definitely not
> > > > > > > > > > > > blessed by UFS PHY designers. In order to add HS-G5 support for SM8550, we
> > > > > > > > > > > > need to split the two sets into their dedicated tables, and leave only the
> > > > > > > > > > > > common settings in the .tlbs. To have the PHY programmed with the correct
> > > > > > > > > > > > set of PHY settings, the submode passed to PHY driver must be either HS-G4
> > > > > > > > > > > > or HS-G5.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > You should also mention that this issue is also present in G4 supported targets.
> > > > > > > > > > And a note that it will get fixed later.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Can Guo <quic_cang@...cinc.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > > > > > > >   drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-pcs-ufs-v6.h     |   2 +
> > > > > > > > > > > >   drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-com-v6.h |   2 +
> > > > > > > > > > > >   .../qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-txrx-ufs-v6.h    |  12 +++
> > > > > > > > > > > >   drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-ufs.c            | 112 ++++++++++++++++++---
> > > > > > > > > > > >   4 files changed, 115 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-pcs-ufs-v6.h b/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-pcs-ufs-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > index c23d5e4..e563af5 100644
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- a/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-pcs-ufs-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > +++ b/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-pcs-ufs-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > @@ -18,6 +18,7 @@
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_BIST_FIXED_PAT_CTRL            0x060
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_TX_HSGEAR_CAPABILITY           0x074
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_RX_HSGEAR_CAPABILITY           0x0bc
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_RX_HS_G5_SYNC_LENGTH_CAPABILITY        0x12c
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_DEBUG_BUS_CLKSEL               0x158
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_LINECFG_DISABLE                        0x17c
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_RX_MIN_HIBERN8_TIME            0x184
> > > > > > > > > > > > @@ -27,5 +28,6 @@
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_READY_STATUS                   0x1a8
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_TX_MID_TERM_CTRL1              0x1f4
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_MULTI_LANE_CTRL1               0x1fc
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QPHY_V6_PCS_UFS_RX_HSG5_SYNC_WAIT_TIME         0x220
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #endif
> > > > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-com-v6.h b/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-com-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > index f420f8f..ef392ce 100644
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- a/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-com-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > +++ b/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-com-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > @@ -56,6 +56,8 @@
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_V6_COM_SYS_CLK_CTRL                            0xe4
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_V6_COM_SYSCLK_BUF_ENABLE                       0xe8
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_IVCO                                        0xf4
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_V6_COM_CMN_IETRIM                              0xfc
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_V6_COM_CMN_IPTRIM                              0x100
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_V6_COM_SYSCLK_EN_SEL                           0x110
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_V6_COM_RESETSM_CNTRL                           0x118
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_V6_COM_LOCK_CMP_EN                             0x120
> > > > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-txrx-ufs-v6.h b/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-txrx-ufs-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > index 15bcb4b..48f31c8 100644
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- a/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-txrx-ufs-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > +++ b/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-qserdes-txrx-ufs-v6.h
> > > > > > > > > > > > @@ -10,10 +10,20 @@
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_TX_RES_CODE_LANE_RX                     0x2c
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_TX_RES_CODE_LANE_OFFSET_TX              0x30
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_TX_RES_CODE_LANE_OFFSET_RX              0x34
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_TX_LANE_MODE_1                          0x7c
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_TX_FR_DCC_CTRL                          0x108
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_UCDR_FASTLOCK_FO_GAIN_RATE2          0x08
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_UCDR_FASTLOCK_FO_GAIN_RATE4          0x10
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_UCDR_FASTLOCK_SO_GAIN_RATE4          0x24
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_UCDR_FASTLOCK_COUNT_HIGH_RATE4       0x54
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_UCDR_FO_GAIN_RATE2                   0xd4
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_UCDR_FO_GAIN_RATE4                   0xdc
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_UCDR_SO_GAIN_RATE4                   0xf0
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_UCDR_PI_CONTROLS                     0xf4
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_VGA_CAL_MAN_VAL                      0x178
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_EQ_OFFSET_ADAPTOR_CNTRL1             0x1bc
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_OFFSET_ADAPTOR_CNTRL3                        0x1c4
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_MODE_RATE_0_1_B0                     0x208
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_MODE_RATE_0_1_B1                     0x20c
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_MODE_RATE_0_1_B3                     0x214
> > > > > > > > > > > > @@ -25,6 +35,8 @@
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_MODE_RATE3_B5                                0x264
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_MODE_RATE3_B8                                0x270
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_MODE_RATE4_B3                                0x280
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_MODE_RATE4_B4                                0x284
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_MODE_RATE4_B6                                0x28c
> > > > > > > > > > > > +#define QSERDES_UFS_V6_RX_DLL0_FTUNE_CTRL                      0x2f8
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > >   #endif
> > > > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-ufs.c b/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-ufs.c
> > > > > > > > > > > > index 3927eba..e0a01497 100644
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- a/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-ufs.c
> > > > > > > > > > > > +++ b/drivers/phy/qualcomm/phy-qcom-qmp-ufs.c
> > > > > > > > > > > > @@ -649,32 +649,51 @@ static const struct qmp_phy_init_tbl sm8550_ufsphy_serdes[] = {
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_HSCLK_SEL_1, 0x11),
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_HSCLK_HS_SWITCH_SEL_1, 0x00),
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_LOCK_CMP_EN, 0x01),
> > > > > > > > > > > > -       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_VCO_TUNE_MAP, 0x04),
> > > > > > > > > > > > -       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_IVCO, 0x0f),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_VCO_TUNE_INITVAL2, 0x00),
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_DEC_START_MODE0, 0x41),
> > > > > > > > > > > > -       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_CP_CTRL_MODE0, 0x0a),
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_RCTRL_MODE0, 0x18),
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_CCTRL_MODE0, 0x14),
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_LOCK_CMP1_MODE0, 0x7f),
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_LOCK_CMP2_MODE0, 0x06),
> > > > > > > > > > > > -       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_DEC_START_MODE0, 0x4c),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +};
> > > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > > +static const struct qmp_phy_init_tbl sm8550_ufsphy_hs_b_serdes[] = {
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_VCO_TUNE_MAP, 0x44),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +};
> > > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > > +static const struct qmp_phy_init_tbl sm8550_ufsphy_g4_serdes[] = {
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_VCO_TUNE_MAP, 0x04),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_IVCO, 0x0f),
> > > > > > > > > > > >          QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_CP_CTRL_MODE0, 0x0a),
> > > > > > > > > > > > -       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_RCTRL_MODE0, 0x18),
> > > > > > > > > > > > -       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_CCTRL_MODE0, 0x14),
> > > > > > > > > > > > -       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_LOCK_CMP1_MODE0, 0x99),
> > > > > > > > > > > > -       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_LOCK_CMP2_MODE0, 0x07),
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Aside from moving these registers to the HS_G4 table, you are also
> > > > > > > > > > > changing these registers. It makes me think that there was an error in
> > > > > > > > > > > the original programming sequence.
> > > > > > > > > > > If that is correct, could you please split the patch into two pieces:
> > > > > > > > > > > - Fix programming sequence (add proper Fixes tags)
> > > > > > > > > > > - Split G4 and G5 tables.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Ack
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > +
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_DEC_START_MODE1, 0x4c),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_CP_CTRL_MODE1, 0x0a),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_RCTRL_MODE1, 0x18),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_PLL_CCTRL_MODE1, 0x14),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_LOCK_CMP1_MODE1, 0x99),
> > > > > > > > > > > > +       QMP_PHY_INIT_CFG(QSERDES_V6_COM_LOCK_CMP2_MODE1, 0x07),
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > I see all the MODE1 registers being only present in G4 and G5 tables.
> > > > > > > > > > > Should they be programmed for the modes lower than G4?
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > We use G4 table for all the modes <= G4.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Could you please point me how it's handled?
> > > > > > > > > In the patch I see just:
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >         if (qmp->submode == UFS_HS_G4)
> > > > > > > > >                 qmp_ufs_serdes_init(qmp, &cfg->tbls_hs_g4);
> > > > > > > > >         else if (qmp->submode == UFS_HS_G5)
> > > > > > > > >                 qmp_ufs_serdes_init(qmp, &cfg->tbls_hs_g5);
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Which looks like two special cases (HS_G4 and HS_G5) and nothing for
> > > > > > > > > anything else.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Yes, and the UFS driver passes only G4/G5. For all the gears <=G4, G4 init
> > > > > > > > sequence will be used and for G5, G5 sequence will be used.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > That's what I could not find in the UFS driver. I see a call to
> > > > > > > `phy_set_mode_ext(phy, PHY_MODE_UFS_HS_B, host->phy_gear);` and
> > > > > > > host->phy_gear is initialised to UFS_HS_G2.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You need to check the UFS driver changes in this series to get the complete
> > > > > > picture as the logic is getting changed.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > It is common to get confused because of the way the UFS driver (qcom mostly)
> > > > > > handles the PHY init sequence programming. We used to have only one init
> > > > > > sequence for older targets and life was easy. But when I wanted to add G4
> > > > > > support for SM8250, I learned that there are 2 separate init sequences. One for
> > > > > > non-G4 and other for G4. So I used the phy_sub_mode property to pass the
> > > > > > relevant mode from the UFS driver to the PHY driver and programmed the sequence
> > > > > > accordingly. This got extended to non-G5 and G5 now.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Now, the UFS driver will start probing from a low gear for older targets (G2)
> > > > > > and G4/G5 for newer ones then scale up based on the device and host capability.
> > > > > > For older targets, the common table (tbls) will be used if the submode doesn't
> > > > > > match G4/G5. But for newer targets, the UFS driver will _only_ pass G4 or G5 as
> > > > > > the phy_gear, so those specific sequence will only be used.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Hope I'm clear.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, it is now clear, thank you!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Would it be possible / feasible / logical to maintain this idea even
> > > > > for newer platforms (leaving the HS_A  / HS_B aside)?
> > > > > 
> > > > > tbls - works for HS_G2
> > > > > tbls + tbls_g4 - works for HS_G4
> > > > > tbls + tbls_g5 - works for HS_G5
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > No. The PHY team only gives 2 init sequences for any SoC now.
> > > 
> > > Ack. Then the code should become
> > > if (HS_G5)
> > >     program(tbls_hs_g5)
> > > else
> > >     program(tbls_hs_g4);
> > > 
> > 
> > This should work. Even if we have to accomodate G6 in the future, we can use
> > "else if" for that and keep G4 as the "else" condition. This logic can also be
> > optimized in the future.
> 
> That would make dual init meaningless for old targets. Say on SM8450, the
> initial PHY gear is G2, with the "else" condition, during the first init, G4
> table would be programmed, then gear negotiation happens btw host and device
> and the negotiated gear is G3 (assume a UFS2.x is connected). During the 2nd
> init, the "else" condition would __again__ program the G4 table - it is not
> programming the non-G4 table for power saving. The dual init is supposed to
> find the optimal PHY settings, but the "else" condition is programming G4
> table unconditinally.
> 
> With the original code change in this patch, the dual init works as it is
> for old targets. say SM8450, the initial PHY gear is G2, during the 2nd
> init, it is programming the non-G4 table (assume a UFS2.x is connected), but
> not the G4 table.
> 

You are right. I completely overlooked the compatibility for old targets. But
still we can move the common table to the "else" condition. This makes it clear
that one of the 3 will be programmed at a time. But with the current logic, I
get the impression that common table is overridden by G4/G5 tables.

So this is what I'm suggesting:

if (HS_G5)
	program(tbls_hs_g5)
else if (HS_G4)
	program(tbls_hs_g4);
else
	program(tbls_hs_common);

- Mani

> Thanks,
> Can Guo.
> > 
> > - Mani
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > - Mani
> > > > 
> > > > > I mean here that the PHY driver should not depend on the knowledge
> > > > > that the UFS driver will not be setting HS_G2 for some particular
> > > > > platform and ideally it should continue working if at some point we
> > > > > change the UFS driver to set HS_G2.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > - Mani
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Maybe we should change the condition here (in the PHY driver) to:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > if (qmp->submode <= UFS_HS_G4)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > With best wishes
> > > > > > > Dmitry
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > மணிவண்ணன் சதாசிவம்
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --
> > > > > With best wishes
> > > > > Dmitry
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > மணிவண்ணன் சதாசிவம்
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > With best wishes
> > > Dmitry
> > 

-- 
மணிவண்ணன் சதாசிவம்

Powered by blists - more mailing lists