Message-ID: <20231207084457.78ab7d31@gandalf.local.home>
Date:   Thu, 7 Dec 2023 08:44:57 -0500
From:   Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>
To:     "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org>
Cc:     Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
        Ankur Arora <ankur.a.arora@...cle.com>,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, peterz@...radead.org,
        torvalds@...ux-foundation.org, linux-mm@...ck.org, x86@...nel.org,
        akpm@...ux-foundation.org, luto@...nel.org, bp@...en8.de,
        dave.hansen@...ux.intel.com, hpa@...or.com, mingo@...hat.com,
        juri.lelli@...hat.com, vincent.guittot@...aro.org,
        willy@...radead.org, mgorman@...e.de, jon.grimm@....com,
        bharata@....com, raghavendra.kt@....com,
        boris.ostrovsky@...cle.com, konrad.wilk@...cle.com,
        jgross@...e.com, andrew.cooper3@...rix.com, mingo@...nel.org,
        bristot@...nel.org, mathieu.desnoyers@...icios.com,
        geert@...ux-m68k.org, glaubitz@...sik.fu-berlin.de,
        anton.ivanov@...bridgegreys.com, mattst88@...il.com,
        krypton@...ich-teichert.org, David.Laight@...lab.com,
        richard@....at, mjguzik@...il.com,
        Simon Horman <horms@...ge.net.au>,
        Julian Anastasov <ja@....bg>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>,
        Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 47/86] rcu: select PREEMPT_RCU if PREEMPT

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 20:34:11 -0800
"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...nel.org> wrote:

> > > I like the concept, but those with mutex_lock() of rarely-held mutexes
> > > in their fastpaths might have workloads that have a contrary opinion.  
> > 
> > I don't understand your above statement. Maybe I wasn't clear with my
> > statement? The above is more about PREEMPT_FULL, as it currently will
> > preempt immediately. My above comment is that we can have an option for
> > PREEMPT_FULL where if the scheduler decided to preempt even in a fast path,
> > it would at least hold off until there's no mutex held. Who cares if it's a
> > fast path when a task needs to give up the CPU for another task? What I
> > worry about is scheduling out while holding a mutex which increases the
> > chance of that mutex being contended upon. Which does have drastic impact
> > on performance.  
> 
> As I understand the current mutex_lock() code, the fastpaths leave no
> scheduler-visible clue that a mutex is in fact held.  If there is no
> such clue, it is quite likely that those fastpaths will need to do some
> additional clue-leaving work, increasing their overhead.  And while it
> is always possible that this overhead will be down in the noise, if it
> was too far down in the noise there would be no need for those fastpaths.
> 
> So it is possible (but by no means certain) that some workloads will end
> up caring.

OK, that makes more sense, and I do agree with that statement. It would
need to do something like spin locks do with preempt disable, but I agree,
this would need to be done in a way not to cause performance regressions.


> 
> > > > > Another is the aforementioned situations where removing the cond_resched()
> > > > > increases latency.  Yes, capping the preemption latency is a wonderful
> > > > > thing, and the people I chatted with are all for that, but it is only
> > > > > natural that there would be a corresponding level of concern about the
> > > > > cases where removing the cond_resched() calls increases latency.    
> > > > 
> > > > With the "capped preemption" I'm not sure that would still be the case.
> > > > cond_resched() currently only preempts if NEED_RESCHED is set. That means
> > > > the system had to already be in a situation that a schedule needs to
> > > > happen. There's lots of places in the kernel that run for over a tick
> > > > without any cond_resched(). The cond_resched() is usually added for
> > > > locations that show tremendous latency (where either a watchdog triggered,
> > > > or showed up in some analysis that had a latency that was much greater than
> > > > a tick).    
> > > 
> > > For non-real-time workloads, the average case is important, not just the
> > > worst case.  In the new lazily preemptible mode of thought, a preemption
> > > by a non-real-time task will wait a tick.  Earlier, it would have waited
> > > for the next cond_resched().  Which, in the average case, might have
> > > arrived much sooner than one tick.  
> > 
> > Or much later. It's random. And what's nice about this model, we can add
> > more models than just "NONE", "VOLUNTARY", "FULL". We could have a way to
> > say "this task needs to preempt immediately" and not just for RT tasks.
> > 
> > This allows the user to decide which task preempts more and which does not
> > (defined by the scheduler), instead of some random cond_resched() that can
> > also preempt a higher priority task that just finished its quota to run a
> > low priority task causing latency for the higher priority task.
> > 
> > This is what I mean by "think differently".  
> 
> I did understand your meaning, and it is a source of some concern.  ;-)
> 
> When things become sufficiently stable, larger-scale tests will of course
> be needed, not just different thought..

Fair enough.

> 
> > > > The point is, if/when we switch to the new preemption model, we would need
> > > > to re-evaluate if any cond_resched() is needed. Yes, testing needs to be
> > > > done to prevent regressions. But the reasons I see cond_resched() being
> > > > added today, should no longer exist with this new model.    
> > > 
> > > This I agree with.  Also, with the new paradigm and new mode of thought
> > > in place, it should be safe to drop any cond_resched() that is in a loop
> > > that consumes more than a tick of CPU time per iteration.  
> > 
> > Why does that matter? Is the loop not important? Why stop it from finishing
> > for some random task that may not be important, and cond_resched() has no
> > idea if it is or not.  
> 
> Because if it takes more than a tick to reach the next cond_resched(),
> lazy preemption is likely to preempt before that cond_resched() is
> reached.  Which suggests that such a cond_resched() would not be all
> that valuable in the new thought paradigm.  Give or take potential issues
> with exactly where the preemption happens.

I'm just saying there's lots of places that the above happens, which is why
we are still scattering cond_resched() all over the place.

> 
> > > > > There might be others as well.  These are the possibilities that have
> > > > > come up thus far.
> > > > >     
> > > > > > They all suck and keeping some of them is just counterproductive as
> > > > > > again people will sprinkle them all over the place for the very wrong
> > > > > > reasons.      
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, but do they suck enough and are they counterproductive enough to
> > > > > be useful and necessary?  ;-)    
> > > > 
> > > > They are only useful and necessary because of the way we handle preemption
> > > > today. With the new preemption model, they are all likely to be useless and
> > > > unnecessary ;-)    
> > > 
> > > The "all likely" needs some demonstration.  I agree that a great many
> > > of them would be useless and unnecessary.  Maybe even the vast majority.
> > > But that is different than "all".  ;-)  
> > 
> > I'm betting it is "all" ;-) But I also agree that this "needs some
> > demonstration". We are not there yet, and likely will not be until the
> > second half of next year. So we have plenty of time to speak rhetorically
> > to each other!  
> 
> You know, we usually find time to engage in rhetorical conversation.  ;-)
> 
> > > > The conflict is with the new paradigm (I love that word! It's so "buzzy").
> > > > As I mentioned above, cond_resched() is usually added when a problem was
> > > > seen. I really believe that those problems would never had been seen if
> > > > the new paradigm had already been in place.    
> > > 
> > > Indeed, that sort of wording does quite the opposite of raising my
> > > confidence levels.  ;-)  
> > 
> > Yes, I admit the "manager speak" isn't something to brag about here. But I
> > really do like that word. It's just fun to say (and spell)! Paradigm,
> > paradigm, paradigm! It's that silent 'g'. Although, I wonder if we should
> > be like gnu, and pronounce it when speaking about free software? Although,
> > that makes the word sound worse. :-p  
> 
> Pair a' dime, pair a' quarter, pair a' fifty-cent pieces, whatever it takes!

 Pair a' two-bits : that's all it's worth

Or

 Pair a' two-cents : as it's my two cents that I'm giving.


> 
> > > You know, the ancient Romans would have had no problem dealing with the
> > > dot-com boom, cryptocurrency, some of the shadier areas of artificial
> > > intelligence and machine learning, and who knows what all else.  As the
> > > Romans used to say, "Beware of geeks bearing grifts."
> > >   
> > > > > >   3) Looking at the initial problem Ankur was trying to solve there is
> > > > > >      absolutely no acceptable solution to solve that unless you think
> > > > > >      that the semantically invers 'allow_preempt()/disallow_preempt()'
> > > > > >      is anywhere near acceptable.      
> > > > > 
> > > > > I am not arguing for allow_preempt()/disallow_preempt(), so for that
> > > > > argument, you need to find someone else to argue with.  ;-)    
> > > > 
> > > > Anyway, there's still a long path before cond_resched() can be removed. It
> > > > was a mistake by Ankur to add those removals this early (and he has
> > > > acknowledged that mistake).    
> > > 
> > > OK, that I can live with.  But that seems to be a bit different of a
> > > take than that of some earlier emails in this thread.  ;-)  
> > 
> > Well, we are also stating the final goal as well. I think there's some
> > confusion to what's going to happen immediately and what's going to happen
> > in the long run.  
> 
> If I didn't know better, I might suspect that in addition to the
> confusion, there are a few differences of opinion.  ;-)

Confusion enhances differences of opinion.

> 
> > > > First we need to get the new preemption modeled implemented. When it is, it
> > > > can be just a config option at first. Then when that config option is set,
> > > > you can enable the NONE, VOLUNTARY or FULL preemption modes, even switch
> > > > between them at run time as they are just a way to tell the scheduler when
> > > > to set NEED_RESCHED_LAZY vs NEED_RSECHED.    
> > > 
> > > Assuming CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU=y, agreed.  With CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU=n,
> > > the runtime switching needs to be limited to NONE and VOLUNTARY.
> > > Which is fine.  
> > 
> > But why? Because the run time switches of NONE and VOLUNTARY are no
> > different than FULL.
> > 
> > Why I say that? Because:
> > 
> > For all modes, NEED_RESCHED_LAZY is set, the kernel has one tick to get out
> > or NEED_RESCHED will be set (of course that one tick may be configurable).
> > Once the NEED_RESCHED is set, then the kernel is converted to PREEMPT_FULL.
> > 
> > Even if the user sets the mode to "NONE", after the above scenario (one tick
> > after NEED_RESCHED_LAZY is set) the kernel will be behaving no differently
> > than PREEMPT_FULL.
> > 
> > So why make the difference between CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU=n and limit to only
> > NONE and VOLUNTARY. It must work with FULL or it will be broken for NONE
> > and VOLUNTARY after one tick from NEED_RESCHED_LAZY being set.  
> 
> Because PREEMPT_FULL=y plus PREEMPT_RCU=n appears to be a useless
> combination.  All of the gains from PREEMPT_FULL=y are more than lost
> due to PREEMPT_RCU=n, especially when the kernel decides to do something
> like walk a long task list under RCU protection.  We should not waste
> people's time getting burned by this combination, nor should we waste
> cycles testing it.

The issue I see here is that PREEMPT_RCU is not something that we can
convert at run time, where the NONE, VOLUNTARY, FULL (and more to come) can
be. And you have stated that PREEMPT_RCU adds some more overhead that
people may not care about. But even though you say PREEMPT_RCU=n makes no
sense with PREEMPT_FULL, it doesn't mean we should not allow it. Especially
if we have to make sure that it still works (even NONE and VOLUNTARY turn
to FULL after that one-tick).

Remember, what we are looking at is having:

N : NEED_RESCHED - schedule at next possible location
L : NEED_RESCHED_LAZY - schedule when going into user space.

When to set what for a task needing to schedule?

 Model           SCHED_OTHER         RT/DL(or user specified)
 -----           -----------         ------------------------
 NONE                 L                         L
 VOLUNTARY            L                         N
 FULL                 N                         N

By saying FULL, you are saying that you want the SCHED_OTHER as well as
RT/DL tasks to schedule as soon as possible and not wait to going into user
space. This is still applicable even with PREEMPT_RCU=n

It may be that someone wants better latency for all tasks (like VOLUNTARY)
but not the overhead that PREEMPT_RCU gives, and is OK with the added
latency as a result.

-- Steve

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