Message-ID: <20240514204500.GO32013@pendragon.ideasonboard.com>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 23:45:00 +0300
From: Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart@...asonboard.com>
To: Nicolas Dufresne <nicolas.dufresne@...labora.com>
Cc: Maxime Ripard <mripard@...hat.com>,
	Bryan O'Donoghue <bryan.odonoghue@...aro.org>,
	Dmitry Baryshkov <dmitry.baryshkov@...aro.org>,
	Hans de Goede <hdegoede@...hat.com>,
	Sumit Semwal <sumit.semwal@...aro.org>,
	Benjamin Gaignard <benjamin.gaignard@...labora.com>,
	Brian Starkey <Brian.Starkey@....com>,
	John Stultz <jstultz@...gle.com>,
	"T.J. Mercier" <tjmercier@...gle.com>,
	Christian König <christian.koenig@....com>,
	Lennart Poettering <mzxreary@...inter.de>,
	Robert Mader <robert.mader@...labora.com>,
	Sebastien Bacher <sebastien.bacher@...onical.com>,
	Linux Media Mailing List <linux-media@...r.kernel.org>,
	"dri-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org" <dri-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org>,
	linaro-mm-sig@...ts.linaro.org,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Milan Zamazal <mzamazal@...hat.com>,
	Andrey Konovalov <andrey.konovalov.ynk@...il.com>
Subject: Re: Safety of opening up /dev/dma_heap/* to physically present users
 (udev uaccess tag) ?

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 11:06:24AM -0400, Nicolas Dufresne wrote:
> Le lundi 13 mai 2024 à 15:51 +0200, Maxime Ripard a écrit :
> > On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 09:42:00AM -0400, Nicolas Dufresne wrote:
> > > Le lundi 13 mai 2024 à 10:29 +0200, Maxime Ripard a écrit :
> > > > On Wed, May 08, 2024 at 10:36:08AM +0200, Daniel Vetter wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, May 07, 2024 at 04:07:39PM -0400, Nicolas Dufresne wrote:
> > > > > > Le mardi 07 mai 2024 à 21:36 +0300, Laurent Pinchart a écrit :
> > > > > > > Shorter term, we have a problem to solve, and the best option we have
> > > > > > > found so far is to rely on dma-buf heaps as a backend for the frame
> > > > > > > buffer allocatro helper in libcamera for the use case described above.
> > > > > > > This won't work in 100% of the cases, clearly. It's a stop-gap measure
> > > > > > > until we can do better.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Considering the security concerned raised on this thread with dmabuf heap
> > > > > > allocation not be restricted by quotas, you'd get what you want quickly with
> > > > > > memfd + udmabuf instead (which is accounted already).
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > It was raised that distro don't enable udmabuf, but as stated there by Hans, in
> > > > > > any cases distro needs to take action to make the softISP works. This
> > > > > > alternative is easy and does not interfere in anyway with your future plan or
> > > > > > the libcamera API. You could even have both dmabuf heap (for Raspbian) and the
> > > > > > safer memfd+udmabuf for the distro with security concerns.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And for the long term plan, we can certainly get closer by fixing that issue
> > > > > > with accounting. This issue also applied to v4l2 io-ops, so it would be nice to
> > > > > > find common set of helpers to fix these exporters.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yeah if this is just for softisp, then memfd + udmabuf is also what I was
> > > > > about to suggest. Not just as a stopgap, but as the real official thing.
> > > > > 
> > > > > udmabuf does kinda allow you to pin memory, but we can easily fix that by
> > > > > adding the right accounting and then either let mlock rlimits or cgroups
> > > > > kernel memory limits enforce good behavior.
> > > > 
> > > > I think the main drawback with memfd is that it'll be broken for devices
> > > > without an IOMMU, and while you said that it's uncommon for GPUs, it's
> > > > definitely not for codecs and display engines.
> > > 
> > > In the context of libcamera, the allocation and the alignment done to the video
> > > frame is done completely blindly. In that context, there is a lot more then just
> > > the allocation type that can go wrong and will lead to a memory copy. The upside
> > > of memfd, is that the read cache will help speeding up the copies if they are
> > > needed.
> > 
> > dma-heaps provide cacheable buffers too...
> 
> Yes, and why we have cache hints in V4L2 now. There is no clue that softISP code
> can read to make the right call. The required cache management in undefined
> until all the importer are known. I also don't think heaps currently care to
> adapt the dmabuf sync behaviour based on the different importers, or the
> addition of a new importer. On top of which, there is insufficient information
> on the device to really deduce what is needed.
> 
> > > Another important point is that this is only used if the application haven't
> > > provided frames. If your embedded application is non-generic, and you have
> > > permissions to access the right heap, the application can solve your specific
> > > issue. But in the generic Linux space, Linux kernel API are just insufficient
> > > for the "just work" scenario.
> > 
> > ... but they also provide semantics around the memory buffers that no
> > other allocation API do. There's at least the mediatek secure playback
> > series and another one that I've started to work on to allocate ECC
> > protected or unprotected buffers that are just the right use case for
> > the heaps, and the target frameworks aren't.
> 
> Let's agree we are both off topic now. The libcamera softISP is currently purely
> software, and cannot write to any form of protected memory. As for ECC, I would
> hope this usage will be coded in the application and that this application has
> been authorized to access the appropriate heaps.
> 
> And finally, none of this fixes the issue that the heap allocation are not being
> accounted properly and allow of an easy memory DoS. So uaccess should be granted
> with care, meaning that defaulting a "desktop" library to that, means it will
> most of the time not work at all.

I think that issue should be fixed, regardless of whether or not we end
up using dma heaps for libcamera. If we do use them, maybe there will be
a higher incentive for somebody involved in this conversation to tackle
that problem first :-) And maybe, as a result, the rest of the Linux
community will consider with a more open mind usage of dma heaps on
desktop systems.

-- 
Regards,

Laurent Pinchart

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