Message-ID: <cba2c216-de99-4f54-8762-ee39018d1b43@ti.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 09:56:11 -0500
From: Andrew Davis <afd@...com>
To: Christian König <ckoenig.leichtzumerken@...il.com>,
        Dmitry Baryshkov <dmitry.baryshkov@...aro.org>
CC: Jens Wiklander <jens.wiklander@...aro.org>, <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        <devicetree@...r.kernel.org>, <linux-media@...r.kernel.org>,
        <dri-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org>, <linaro-mm-sig@...ts.linaro.org>,
        <op-tee@...ts.trustedfirmware.org>,
        <linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org>,
        <linux-mediatek@...ts.infradead.org>,
        Olivier Masse <olivier.masse@....com>,
        Thierry Reding
	<thierry.reding@...il.com>,
        Yong Wu <yong.wu@...iatek.com>,
        Sumit Semwal
	<sumit.semwal@...aro.org>,
        Benjamin Gaignard
	<benjamin.gaignard@...labora.com>,
        Brian Starkey <Brian.Starkey@....com>,
        John Stultz <jstultz@...gle.com>,
        "T . J . Mercier" <tjmercier@...gle.com>,
        Christian König <christian.koenig@....com>,
        Sumit Garg
	<sumit.garg@...aro.org>,
        Matthias Brugger <matthias.bgg@...il.com>,
        AngeloGioacchino Del Regno <angelogioacchino.delregno@...labora.com>,
        Rob
 Herring <robh@...nel.org>,
        Krzysztof Kozlowski <krzk+dt@...nel.org>,
        Conor
 Dooley <conor+dt@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [Linaro-mm-sig] Re: [RFC PATCH 0/4] Linaro restricted heap

On 9/25/24 3:51 AM, Christian König wrote:
> Am 25.09.24 um 01:05 schrieb Dmitry Baryshkov:
>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 01:13:18PM GMT, Andrew Davis wrote:
>>> On 9/23/24 1:33 AM, Dmitry Baryshkov wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 09:03:47AM GMT, Jens Wiklander wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> This patch set is based on top of Yong Wu's restricted heap patch set[1].
>>>>> It's also a continuation on Olivier's Add dma-buf secure-heap patch set [2].
>>>>>
>>>>> The Linaro restricted heap uses genalloc in the kernel to manage the heap
>>>>> carvout. This is a difference from the Mediatek restricted heap which
>>>>> relies on the secure world to manage the carveout.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've tried to adress the comments on [2], but [1] introduces changes so I'm
>>>>> afraid I've had to skip some comments.
>>>> I know I have raised the same question during LPC (in connection to
>>>> Qualcomm's dma-heap implementation). Is there any reason why we are
>>>> using generic heaps instead of allocating the dma-bufs on the device
>>>> side?
>>>>
>>>> In your case you already have TEE device, you can use it to allocate and
>>>> export dma-bufs, which then get imported by the V4L and DRM drivers.
>>>>
>>> This goes to the heart of why we have dma-heaps in the first place.
>>> We don't want to burden userspace with having to figure out the right
>>> place to get a dma-buf for a given use-case on a given hardware.
>>> That would be very non-portable, and fail at the core purpose of
>>> a kernel: to abstract hardware specifics away.
>> Unfortunately all proposals to use dma-buf heaps were moving in the
>> described direction: let app select (somehow) from a platform- and
>> vendor- specific list of dma-buf heaps. In the kernel we at least know
>> the platform on which the system is running. Userspace generally doesn't
>> (and shouldn't). As such, it seems better to me to keep the knowledge in
>> the kernel and allow userspace do its job by calling into existing
>> device drivers.
> 
> The idea of letting the kernel fully abstract away the complexity of inter device data exchange is a completely failed design. There has been plentyof evidence for that over the years.
> 

And forcing userspace to figure it all out is also an unsolved problem
after all these years. Neither side wants to get their hands dirty, but
it is fundamentally a kernel problem to handle these device complexities.

> Because of this in DMA-buf it's an intentional design decision that userspace and *not* the kernel decides where and what to allocate from.
> 

DMA-buf attach and map stages are split from each other, to me this indicates
the design intended the actual backing allocation to be chosen based on attached
devices at map time, not at allocation time. Meaning userspace doesn't really get
to choose the backing storage.

> What the kernel should provide are the necessary information what type ofmemory a device can work with and if certain memory is accessible or not. This is the part which is unfortunately still not well defined nor implemented at the moment.
> 

This sounds like the kernel provided "hints" solution. Given enough hints,
the correct Heap would become obvious, and so a complete hint based solution
is one step away from just having the kernel simply make that one correct
selection for you.

> Apart from that there are a whole bunch of intentional design decision which should prevent developers to move allocation decision inside the kernel. For example DMA-buf doesn't know what the content of the buffer is (except for it's total size) and which use cases a buffer will be used with.
> 
> So the question if memory should be exposed through DMA-heaps or a driverspecific allocator is not a question of abstraction, but rather one of thephysical location and accessibility of the memory.
> 
> If the memory is attached to any physical device, e.g. local memory on a dGPU, FPGA PCIe BAR, RDMA, camera internal memory etc, then expose the memory as device specific allocator.
> 
> If the memory is not physically attached to any device, but rather just memory attached to the CPU or a system wide memory controller then expose the memory as DMA-heap with specific requirements (e.g. certain sized pages, contiguous, restricted, encrypted, ...).
> 

Agree with the first part, some exporters are just giving out CPU memory
but with some specific constraint (some subsystems get a pass like V4L2
as it came out before DMA-heaps, but no reason to keep making new allocators
for each and every subsystem just because they may have some memory
constraint on the consumption side).

>>> Worse, the actual interface for dma-buf exporting changes from
>>> framework to framework (getting a dma-buf from DRM is different
>>> than V4L, and there would be yet another API for TEE, etc..)
>> But if the app is working with the particular subsystem, then it already
>> talks its language. Allocating a dma-buf is just another part of the
>> interface, which the app already has to support.
> 
> Correct, yes.
> 

Importing the buffer to a given subsystem with be subsystem specific yes,
but I don't see how that means allocating the buffer should have to be too.
For instance I need one of these new "restricted" heaps to pass to V4L2,
I'll need to know how to use V4L2 sure, but why should I have to deal with
the TEE subsystem to get that buffer as proposed? The common allocator
could have handled this.

>>> Most subsystem don't need an allocator, they work just fine
>>> simply being only dma-bufs importers. Recent example being the
>>> IIO subsystem[0], for which some early posting included an
>>> allocator, but in the end, all that was needed was to consume
>>> buffers.
>>>
>>> For devices that don't actually contain memory there is no
>>> reason to be an exporter. What most want is just to consume
>>> normal system memory. Or system memory with some constraints
>>> (e.g. contiguous, coherent, restricted, etc..).
>> ... secure, accessible only to the camera and video encoder, ... or
>> accessible only to the video decoder and the display unit. Who specifies
>> those restrictions? Can we express them in a platform-neutral way?
> 
> I once create a prototype for letting kernel drivers expose hints to which DMA-heap they want to work with.
> 
> The problem is that there are tons of different use cases and you need touse specific allocations for specific use cases.
> 
>>>> I have a feeling (I might be completely wrong here) that by using
>>>> generic dma-buf heaps we can easily end up in a situation when the
>>>> userspace depends heavily on the actual platform being used (to map the
>>>> platform to heap names). I think we should instead depend on the
>>>> existing devices (e.g. if there is a TEE device, use an IOCTL to
>>>> allocate secured DMA BUF from it, otherwise check for QTEE device,
>>>> otherwise check for some other vendor device).
>>>>
>>>> The mental experiment to check if the API is correct is really simple:
>>>> Can you use exactly the same rootfs on several devices without
>>>> any additional tuning (e.g. your QEMU, HiKey, a Mediatek board, Qualcomm
>>>> laptop, etc)?
>>>>
>>> This is a great north star to follow. And exactly the reason we should
>>> *not* be exposing device specific constraints to userspace. The constrains
>>> change based on the platform. So a userspace would have to also pick
>>> a different set of constraints based on each platform.
>> Great, I totally agree here.
> 
> That sounds reasonable, but depends on the restriction.
> 
> For example a lot of GPUs can work with any imported memory as long as itis DMA accessible for them, but they can scanout a picture to display on amonitor only from their local memory.
> 

And in this case, attaching the DMA-buf to that monitor for scanout
should fail at attach time, if we had a way to properly communicate
constraints between importer and exporter..

>>> Userspace knows which subsystems it will attach a buffer, and the
>>> kernel knows what constraints those devices have on a given platform.
>>> Ideal case is then allocate from the one exporter, attach to various
>>> devices, and have the constraints solved at map time by the exporter
>>> based on the set of attached devices.
> 
> That approach doesn't work. We have already tried stuff like that multiple times.
> 

Past failures don't guarantee future failure :)

>>> For example, on one platform the display needs contiguous buffers,
>>> but on a different platform the display can scatter-gather. So
>>> what heap should our generic application allocate from when it
>>> wants a buffer consumable by the display, CMA or System?
>>> Answer *should* be always use the generic exporter, and that
>>> exporter then picks the right backing type based on the platform.
>> The display can support scather-gather, the GPU needs bigger stride for
>> this particular format and the video encoder decoder can not support SG.
>> Which set of constraints and which buffer size should generic exporter
>> select?
> 
> Yeah, exactly that's the problem. The kernel doesn't know all the necessary information to make an informed allocation decision.
> 

Why not? For instance when we attach a buffer for scanout we provide
all the format/stride/etc info. What we are missing is a backchannel
to provide these to the exporter as a set of constraints that those
formats impose on a memory area for a given device.

> Sometimes you even have to insert format conversation steps and doing that transparently for userspace inside the kernel is really a no-go from the design side.
> 

Agree, we cannot be doing conversions like that in-kernel. We need
the format and constraints solved at an earlier step.

Andrew

>>> Userspace shouldn't be dealing with any of these constraints
>>> (looking back, adding the CMA heap was probably incorrect,
>>> and the System heap should have been the only one. Idea back
>>> then was a userspace helper would show up to do the constraint
>>> solving and pick the right heap. That has yet to materialize and
>>> folks are still just hardcoding which heap to use..).
>>>
>>> Same for this restricted heap, I'd like to explore if we can
>>> enhance the System heap such that when attached to the TEE framework,
>>> the backing memory is either made restricted by fire-walling,
>>> or allocating from a TEE carveout (based on platform).
> 
> Clearly NAK from my side to that design.
> 
> Regards,
> Christian.
> 
>> Firewalling from which devices? Or rather allowing access from which
>> devices? Is it possible to specify that somehow?
>>
>>> This will mean more inter-subsystem coordination, but we can
>>> iterate on these in kernel interfaces. We cannot iterate on
>>> userspace interfaces, those have to be correct the first time.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> [0]https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/next/iio/iio_dmabuf_api.html
>>>
>>>>> This can be tested on QEMU with the following steps:
>>>>> repo init -uhttps://github.com/jenswi-linaro/manifest.git  -m qemu_v8.xml \
>>>>>           -b prototype/sdp-v1
>>>>> repo sync -j8
>>>>> cd build
>>>>> make toolchains -j4
>>>>> make all -j$(nproc)
>>>>> make run-only
>>>>> # login and at the prompt:
>>>>> xtest --sdp-basic
>>>>>
>>>>> https://optee.readthedocs.io/en/latest/building/prerequisites.html
>>>>> list dependencies needed to build the above.
>>>>>
>>>>> The tests are pretty basic, mostly checking that a Trusted Application in
>>>>> the secure world can access and manipulate the memory.
>>>> - Can we test that the system doesn't crash badly if user provides
>>>>     non-secured memory to the users which expect a secure buffer?
>>>>
>>>> - At the same time corresponding entities shouldn't decode data to the
>>>>     buffers accessible to the rest of the sytem.
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Jens
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]https://lore.kernel.org/dri-devel/20240515112308.10171-1-yong.wu@mediatek.com/
>>>>> [2]https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220805135330.970-1-olivier.masse@nxp.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Changes since Olivier's post [2]:
>>>>> * Based on Yong Wu's post [1] where much of dma-buf handling is done in
>>>>>     the generic restricted heap
>>>>> * Simplifications and cleanup
>>>>> * New commit message for "dma-buf: heaps: add Linaro restricted dmabuf heap
>>>>>     support"
>>>>> * Replaced the word "secure" with "restricted" where applicable
>>>>>
>>>>> Etienne Carriere (1):
>>>>>     tee: new ioctl to a register tee_shm from a dmabuf file descriptor
>>>>>
>>>>> Jens Wiklander (2):
>>>>>     dma-buf: heaps: restricted_heap: add no_map attribute
>>>>>     dma-buf: heaps: add Linaro restricted dmabuf heap support
>>>>>
>>>>> Olivier Masse (1):
>>>>>     dt-bindings: reserved-memory: add linaro,restricted-heap
>>>>>
>>>>>    .../linaro,restricted-heap.yaml               |  56 ++++++
>>>>>    drivers/dma-buf/heaps/Kconfig                 |  10 ++
>>>>>    drivers/dma-buf/heaps/Makefile                |   1 +
>>>>>    drivers/dma-buf/heaps/restricted_heap.c       |  17 +-
>>>>>    drivers/dma-buf/heaps/restricted_heap.h       |   2 +
>>>>>    .../dma-buf/heaps/restricted_heap_linaro.c    | 165 ++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>    drivers/tee/tee_core.c                        |  38 ++++
>>>>>    drivers/tee/tee_shm.c                         | 104 ++++++++++-
>>>>>    include/linux/tee_drv.h                       |  11 ++
>>>>>    include/uapi/linux/tee.h                      |  29 +++
>>>>>    10 files changed, 426 insertions(+), 7 deletions(-)
>>>>>    create mode 100644 Documentation/devicetree/bindings/reserved-memory/linaro,restricted-heap.yaml
>>>>>    create mode 100644 drivers/dma-buf/heaps/restricted_heap_linaro.c
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> 2.34.1
>>>>>
> 

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