Message-ID: <87iktv58tn.fsf@kernel.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 12:32:04 +0300
From: Kalle Valo <kvalo@...nel.org>
To: Philipp Hortmann <philipp.g.hortmann@...il.com>
Cc: linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,  "David S . Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
  Alexandre Belloni <alexandre.belloni@...tlin.com>,  Claudiu Beznea
 <claudiu.beznea@...on.dev>,  Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@...ux-m68k.org>,
  Geoff Levand <geoff@...radead.org>,  Greg Kroah-Hartman
 <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,  Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>,  Jeff
 Johnson <quic_jjohnson@...cinc.com>,  Johannes Berg
 <johannes@...solutions.net>,  Larry Finger <Larry.Finger@...inger.net>,
  Nicolas Ferre <nicolas.ferre@...rochip.com>,  Pavel Machek
 <pavel@....cz>,  Stanislaw Gruszka <stf_xl@...pl>,  Gregory Greenman
 <gregory.greenman@...el.com>,  linuxppc-dev
 <linuxppc-dev@...ts.ozlabs.org>,  linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org,
  linux-staging@...ts.linux.dev,  linux-wireless@...r.kernel.org,  Arnd
 Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,  Stefan Lippers-Hollmann <s.l-h@....de>
Subject: Re: [RFC] ipw2100 ipw2200 ps3_gelic rtl8712 --- Are we ready for
 wext cleanup?

Philipp Hortmann <philipp.g.hortmann@...il.com> writes:

> origin of this question was the following patch series from Arnd Bergmann
> [PATCH 00/10] Remove obsolete and orphaned wifi drivers
> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/20231023131953.2876682-1-arnd@kernel.org/
>
> Here the remaining files that use iw_handler_def:
> drivers/net/ethernet/toshiba/ps3_gelic_wireless.c:static const struct
> iw_handler_def gelic_wl_wext_handler_def = {
> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c:static const struct
> iw_handler_def ipw2100_wx_handler_def;
> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c:static const struct
> iw_handler_def ipw2100_wx_handler_def = {
> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2200.c:static const struct
> iw_handler_def ipw_wx_handler_def = {
> drivers/staging/rtl8712/os_intfs.c:     pnetdev->wireless_handlers =
> (struct iw_handler_def *)
> drivers/staging/rtl8712/rtl871x_ioctl.h:extern struct iw_handler_def
> r871x_handlers_def;
> drivers/staging/rtl8712/rtl871x_ioctl_linux.c:struct iw_handler_def
> r871x_handlers_def = {
>
>
> In this Email Greg writes over rtl8192e:
> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/2024100810-payback-suds-8c15@gregkh/
> "...
> No staging driver should ever get in the way of api changes elsewhere in
> the kernel, that's one of the rules of this part of the tree.  So from
> my opinion, it's fine to delete it now.  It can always come back in a
> new way later on.
> ..."
>
> So it should not be an issue to remove rtl8712.
>
> Stefan Lippers-Hollmann was one year ago still using the ipw2200.
> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/20231024014302.0a0b79b0@mir/
>
> Here my opinion why I think we should reconsider this:
>
> I really like to use old hardware. One of my computers is from trash
> and the other one is bought for 50€ three years ago. But non of my
> hardware is from before 2012. Do we as a community really need to
> support hardware from 2003 in kernel 6.13 for WLAN that evolved so
> rapidly? I do not think so.
>
> People around me are complaining that the 2,4GHz WLAN is difficult to
> use because so many devices are using it. Such slow devices consume a
> lot of time to send and receive the data and block therefore other
> devices.
>
> The longterm kernels will still support this hardware for years.
>
> Please explain to our very high value resources (Maintainers,
> Developers with wext and mac80211 expierience) that you cannot find
> any other solution that is within technical possibility and budget
> (USB WLAN Stick or exchange of WLAN module) and that they need to
> invest their time for maintenance.
> Here the example of invested time from Johannes Berg:
> https://lore.kernel.org/all/20241007213525.8b2d52b60531.I6a27aaf30bded9a0977f07f47fba2bd31a3b3330@changeid/
>
> I cannot ask the Linux kernel community to support my test hardware
> just because I bought it some time ago. Rather, I have to show that I
> use it for private or business purposes on a regular basis and that I
> cannot easily change.
>
> Using this hardware is security wise not state of the art as WPA3 is
> not supported. We put so much effort into security. Why not here?

I didn't quite get what you are saying here, are you proposing that we
should remove ancient drivers faster?

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