Message-ID: <930d8830-3d5d-496d-80d8-b716ea6446bb@amazon.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2025 17:01:11 +0100
From: Nikita Kalyazin <kalyazin@...zon.com>
To: "Liam R. Howlett" <Liam.Howlett@...cle.com>, Lorenzo Stoakes
	<lorenzo.stoakes@...cle.com>
CC: Peter Xu <peterx@...hat.com>, David Hildenbrand <david@...hat.com>, "Mike
 Rapoport" <rppt@...nel.org>, Suren Baghdasaryan <surenb@...gle.com>,
	<linux-mm@...ck.org>, <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, Vlastimil Babka
	<vbabka@...e.cz>, Muchun Song <muchun.song@...ux.dev>, Hugh Dickins
	<hughd@...gle.com>, Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>, James Houghton
	<jthoughton@...gle.com>, Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.com>, Andrea Arcangeli
	<aarcange@...hat.com>, Oscar Salvador <osalvador@...e.de>, Axel Rasmussen
	<axelrasmussen@...gle.com>, Ujwal Kundur <ujwal.kundur@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 1/4] mm: Introduce vm_uffd_ops API



On 04/07/2025 20:39, Liam R. Howlett wrote:
> * Peter Xu <peterx@...hat.com> [250704 11:00]:
>> On Fri, Jul 04, 2025 at 11:34:15AM +0200, David Hildenbrand wrote:
>>> On 03.07.25 19:48, Mike Rapoport wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Jul 02, 2025 at 03:46:57PM -0400, Peter Xu wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 02, 2025 at 08:39:32PM +0300, Mike Rapoport wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The main target of this change is the implementation of UFFD for
>>>>>>> KVM/guest_memfd (examples: [1], [2]) to avoid bringing KVM-specific code
>>>>>>> into the mm codebase.  We usually mean KVM by the "drivers" in this context,
>>>>>>> and it is already somewhat "knowledgeable" of the mm.  I don't think there
>>>>>>> are existing use cases for other drivers to implement this at the moment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although I can't see new exports in this series, there is now a way to limit
>>>>>>> exports to particular modules [3].  Would it help if we only do it for KVM
>>>>>>> initially (if/when actually needed)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There were talks about pulling out guest_memfd core into mm, but I don't
>>>>>> remember patches about it. If parts of guest_memfd were already in mm/ that
>>>>>> would make easier to export uffd ops to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do we have a link to such discussion?  I'm also curious whether that idea
>>>>> was acknowledged by KVM maintainers.
>>>>
>>>> AFAIR it was discussed at one of David's guest_memfd calls
>>>
>>> While it was discussed in the call a couple of times in different context
>>> (guest_memfd as a library / guest_memfd shim), I think we already discussed
>>> it back at LPC last year.
>>>
>>> One of the main reasons for doing that is supporting guest_memfd in other
>>> hypervisors -- the gunyah hypervisor in the kernel wants to make use of it
>>> as well.
>>
>> I see, thanks for the info. I found the series, it's here:
>>
>> https://lore.kernel.org/all/20241113-guestmem-library-v3-0-71fdee85676b@quicinc.com/
>>
>> Here, the question is whether do we still want to keep explicit calls to
>> shmem, hugetlbfs and in the future, guest-memfd.  The library-ize of
>> guest-memfd doesn't change a huge lot on answering this question, IIUC.
> 
> Can you explore moving hugetlb_mfill_atomic_pte and
> shmem_mfill_atomic_pte into mm/userfaultfd.c and generalizing them to
> use the same code?
> 
> That is, split the similar blocks into functions and reduce duplication.
> 
> These are under the UFFD config option and are pretty similar.  This
> will also limit the bleeding of mfill_atomic_mode out of uffd.
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at what the code does in userfaultfd.c, you can see that
> some refactoring is necessary for other reasons:
> 
> mfill_atomic() calls mfill_atomic_hugetlb(), or it enters a while
> (src_addr < src_start + len) to call mfill_atomic_pte().. which might
> call shmem_mfill_atomic_pte() in mm/shmem.c
> 
> mfill_atomic_hugetlb() calls, in a while (src_addr < src_start + len)
> loop and calls hugetlb_mfill_atomic_pte() in mm/hugetlb.c
> 
> The shmem call already depends on the vma flags.. which it still does in
> your patch 4 here.  So you've replaced this:
> 
> if (!(dst_vma->vm_flags & VM_SHARED)) {
> ...
> } else {
>          shmem_mfill_atomic_pte()
> }
> 
> With...
> 
> if (!(dst_vma->vm_flags & VM_SHARED)) {
> ...
> } else {
> ...
>          uffd_ops->uffd_copy()
> }
> 
> So, really, what needs to happen first is userfaultfd needs to be
> sorted.
> 
> There's no point of creating a vm_ops_uffd if it will just serve as
> replacing the call locations of the functions like this, as it has done
> nothing to simplify the logic.
> 
>> However if we want to generalize userfaultfd capability for a type of
>> memory, we will still need something like the vm_uffd_ops hook to report
>> such information.  It means drivers can still overwrite these, with/without
>> an exported mfill_atomic_install_pte() functions.  I'm not sure whether
>> that eases the concern.
> 
> If we work through the duplication and reduction where possible, the
> path forward may be easier to see.
> 
>>
>> So to me, generalizing the mem type looks helpful with/without moving
>> guest-memfd under mm/.
> 
> Yes, it should decrease the duplication across hugetlb.c and shmem.c,
> but I think that userfaultfd is the place to start.
> 
>>
>> We do have the option to keep hard-code guest-memfd like shmem or
>> hugetlbfs. This is still "doable", but this likely means guest-memfd
>> support for userfaultfd needs to be done after that work.  I did quickly
>> check the status of gunyah hypervisor [1,2,3], I found that all of the
>> efforts are not yet continued in 2025.  The hypervisor last update was Jan
>> 2024 with a batch push [1].
>>
>> I still prefer generalizing uffd capabilities using the ops.  That makes
>> guest-memfd support on MINOR not be blocked and it should be able to be
>> done concurrently v.s. guest-memfd library.  If guest-memfd library idea
>> didn't move on, it's non-issue either.
>>
>> I've considered dropping uffd_copy() and MISSING support for vm_uffd_ops if
>> I'm going to repost - that looks like the only thing that people are
>> against with, even though that is not my preference, as that'll make the
>> API half-broken on its own.
> 
> The generalisation you did does not generalize much, as I pointed out
> above, and so it seems less impactful than it could be.
> 
> These patches also do not explore what this means for guest_memfd.  So
> it is not clear that the expected behaviour will serve the need.
> 
> You sent a link to an example user.  Can you please keep this work
> together in the patch set so that we know it'll work for your use case
> and allows us an easier way to pull down this work so we can examine it.

Hi Liam, Lorenzo,

With mmap support in guest_memfd being recently accepted and merged into 
kvm/next [1], UFFDIO_CONTINUE support in guest_memfd becomes a real use 
case.

 From what I understand, it is the API for UFFDIO_COPY (ie the 
.uffd_copy callback) proposed by Peter that raises the safery issues, 
while the generalisation of the checks (.uffd_features, .uffd_ioctls) 
and .uffd_get_folio needed for UFFDIO_CONTINUE do not introduce such 
concerns.  In order to unblock the userfaultfd support in guest_memfd, 
would it be acceptable to start with implementing 
.uffd_get_folio/UFFDIO_CONTINUE only, leaving the callback for 
UFFDIO_COPY for later when we have an idea about a safer API and a clear 
use case for that?

If that's the case, what would be the best way to demonstrate the client 
code?  Would using kvm/next as the base for the aggregated series (new 
mm API + client code in kvm/guest_memfd) work?

Thanks,
Nikita

[1]: https://lore.kernel.org/kvm/20250729225455.670324-1-seanjc@google.com/
> 
> Alternatively, you can reduce and combine the memory types without
> exposing the changes externally, if they stand on their own.  But I
> don't think anyone is going to accept using a vm_ops change where a
> direct function call could be used.
> 
>> Said that, I still prefer this against
>> hard-code and/or use CONFIG_GUESTMEM in userfaultfd code.
> 
> It also does nothing with regards to the CONFIG_USERFAULTFD in other
> areas.  My hope is that you could pull out the common code and make the
> CONFIG_ sections smaller.
> 
> And, by the way, it isn't the fact that we're going to copy something
> (or mfill_atomic it, I guess?) but the fact that we're handing out the
> pointer for something else to do that.  Please handle this manipulation
> in the core mm code without handing out pointers to folios, or page
> tables.
> 
> You could do this with the address being passed in and figure out the
> type, or even a function pointer that you specifically pass in an enum
> of the type (I think this is what Lorenzo was suggesting somewhere),
> maybe with multiple flags for actions and fallback (MFILL|ZERO for
> example).
> 
> Thanks,
> Liam
> 

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