Message-ID: <87cy5x7sud.fsf@wotan.olymp>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2025 14:52:42 +0000
From: Luis Henriques <luis@...lia.com>
To: Amir Goldstein <amir73il@...il.com>
Cc: "Darrick J. Wong" <djwong@...nel.org>,  Bernd Schubert
 <bernd@...ernd.com>,  "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@....edu>,  Miklos Szeredi
 <miklos@...redi.hu>,  Bernd Schubert <bschubert@....com>,
  linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,  linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,  Kevin Chen
 <kchen@....com>
Subject: Re: [RFC] Another take at restarting FUSE servers

On Tue, Nov 04 2025, Amir Goldstein wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 4, 2025 at 12:40 PM Luis Henriques <luis@...lia.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 16 2025, Amir Goldstein wrote:
>>
>> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 4:53 AM Darrick J. Wong <djwong@...nel.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 10:41:31AM +0200, Amir Goldstein wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 10:27 AM Bernd Schubert <bernd@...ernd.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On 9/15/25 09:07, Amir Goldstein wrote:
>> >> > > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 4:58 PM Darrick J. Wong <djwong@...nel.org> wrote:
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 02:29:03PM +0200, Bernd Schubert wrote:
>> >> > > >>>
>> >> > > >>>
>> >> > > >>> On 9/12/25 13:41, Amir Goldstein wrote:
>> >> > > >>>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 12:31 PM Bernd Schubert <bernd@...ernd.com> wrote:
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>> On 8/1/25 12:15, Luis Henriques wrote:
>> >> > > >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 31 2025, Darrick J. Wong wrote:
>> >> > > >>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 09:04:58AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>> >> > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 04:38:54PM -0700, Darrick J. Wong wrote:
>> >> > > >>>>>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>>>>> Just speaking for fuse2fs here -- that would be kinda nifty if libfuse
>> >> > > >>>>>>>>> could restart itself.  It's unclear if doing so will actually enable us
>> >> > > >>>>>>>>> to clear the condition that caused the failure in the first place, but I
>> >> > > >>>>>>>>> suppose fuse2fs /does/ have e2fsck -fy at hand.  So maybe restarts
>> >> > > >>>>>>>>> aren't totally crazy.
>> >> > > >>>>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>>>> I'm trying to understand what the failure scenario is here.  Is this
>> >> > > >>>>>>>> if the userspace fuse server (i.e., fuse2fs) has crashed?  If so, what
>> >> > > >>>>>>>> is supposed to happen with respect to open files, metadata and data
>> >> > > >>>>>>>> modifications which were in transit, etc.?  Sure, fuse2fs could run
>> >> > > >>>>>>>> e2fsck -fy, but if there are dirty inode on the system, that's going
>> >> > > >>>>>>>> potentally to be out of sync, right?
>> >> > > >>>>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>>>> What are the recovery semantics that we hope to be able to provide?
>> >> > > >>>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>>> <echoing what we said on the ext4 call this morning>
>> >> > > >>>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>>> With iomap, most of the dirty state is in the kernel, so I think the new
>> >> > > >>>>>>> fuse2fs instance would poke the kernel with FUSE_NOTIFY_RESTARTED, which
>> >> > > >>>>>>> would initiate GETATTR requests on all the cached inodes to validate
>> >> > > >>>>>>> that they still exist; and then resend all the unacknowledged requests
>> >> > > >>>>>>> that were pending at the time.  It might be the case that you have to
>> >> > > >>>>>>> that in the reverse order; I only know enough about the design of fuse
>> >> > > >>>>>>> to suspect that to be true.
>> >> > > >>>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>>> Anyhow once those are complete, I think we can resume operations with
>> >> > > >>>>>>> the surviving inodes.  The ones that fail the GETATTR revalidation are
>> >> > > >>>>>>> fuse_make_bad'd, which effectively revokes them.
>> >> > > >>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>> Ah! Interesting, I have been playing a bit with sending LOOKUP requests,
>> >> > > >>>>>> but probably GETATTR is a better option.
>> >> > > >>>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>> So, are you currently working on any of this?  Are you implementing this
>> >> > > >>>>>> new NOTIFY_RESTARTED request?  I guess it's time for me to have a closer
>> >> > > >>>>>> look at fuse2fs too.
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>> Sorry for joining the discussion late, I was totally occupied, day and
>> >> > > >>>>> night. Added Kevin to CC, who is going to work on recovery on our
>> >> > > >>>>> DDN side.
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>> Issue with GETATTR and LOOKUP is that they need a path, but on fuse
>> >> > > >>>>> server restart we want kernel to recover inodes and their lookup count.
>> >> > > >>>>> Now inode recovery might be hard, because we currently only have a
>> >> > > >>>>> 64-bit node-id - which is used my most fuse application as memory
>> >> > > >>>>> pointer.
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>> As Luis wrote, my issue with FUSE_NOTIFY_RESEND is that it just re-sends
>> >> > > >>>>> outstanding requests. And that ends up in most cases in sending requests
>> >> > > >>>>> with invalid node-IDs, that are casted and might provoke random memory
>> >> > > >>>>> access on restart. Kind of the same issue why fuse nfs export or
>> >> > > >>>>> open_by_handle_at doesn't work well right now.
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>> So IMHO, what we really want is something like FUSE_LOOKUP_FH, which
>> >> > > >>>>> would not return a 64-bit node ID, but a max 128 byte file handle.
>> >> > > >>>>> And then FUSE_REVALIDATE_FH on server restart.
>> >> > > >>>>> The file handles could be stored into the fuse inode and also used for
>> >> > > >>>>> NFS export.
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>> I *think* Amir had a similar idea, but I don't find the link quickly.
>> >> > > >>>>> Adding Amir to CC.
>> >> > > >>>>
>> >> > > >>>> Or maybe it was Miklos' idea. Hard to keep track of this rolling thread:
>> >> > > >>>> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdevel/CAJfpegvNZ6Z7uhuTdQ6quBaTOYNkAP8W_4yUY4L2JRAEKxEwOQ@mail.gmail.com/
>> >> > > >>>
>> >> > > >>> Thanks for the reference Amir! I even had been in that thread.
>> >> > > >>>
>> >> > > >>>>
>> >> > > >>>>>
>> >> > > >>>>> Our short term plan is to add something like FUSE_NOTIFY_RESTART, which
>> >> > > >>>>> will iterate over all superblock inodes and mark them with fuse_make_bad.
>> >> > > >>>>> Any objections against that?
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> What if you actually /can/ reuse a nodeid after a restart?  Consider
>> >> > > >> fuse4fs, where the nodeid is the on-disk inode number.  After a restart,
>> >> > > >> you can reconnect the fuse_inode to the ondisk inode, assuming recovery
>> >> > > >> didn't delete it, obviously.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > FUSE_LOOKUP_HANDLE is a contract.
>> >> > > > If fuse4fs can reuse nodeid after restart then by all means, it should sign
>> >> > > > this contract, otherwise there is no way for client to know that the
>> >> > > > nodeids are persistent.
>> >> > > > If fuse4fs_handle := nodeid, that will make implementing the lookup_handle()
>> >> > > > API trivial.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> I suppose you could just ask for refreshed stat information and either
>> >> > > >> the server gives it to you and the fuse_inode lives; or the server
>> >> > > >> returns ENOENT and then we mark it bad.  But I'd have to see code
>> >> > > >> patches to form a real opinion.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > You could make fuse4fs_handle := <nodeid:fuse_instance_id>
>> >> > > > where fuse_instance_id can be its start time or random number.
>> >> > > > for auto invalidate, or maybe the fuse_instance_id should be
>> >> > > > a native part of FUSE protocol so that client knows to only invalidate
>> >> > > > attr cache in case of fuse_instance_id change?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > In any case, instead of a storm of revalidate messages after
>> >> > > > server restart, do it lazily on demand.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > For a network file system, probably. For fuse4fs or other block
>> >> > > based file systems, not sure. Darrick has the example of fsck.
>> >> > > Let's assume fuse4fs runs with attribute and dentry timeouts > 0,
>> >> > > fuse-server gets restarted, fsck'ed and some files get removed.
>> >> > > Now reading these inodes would still work - wouldn't it
>> >> > > be better to invalidate the cache before going into operation
>> >> > > again?
>> >> >
>> >> > Forgive me, I was making a wrong assumption that fuse4fs
>> >> > was using ext4 filehandle as nodeid, but of course it does not.
>> >>
>> >> Well now that you mention it, there /is/ a risk of shenanigans like
>> >> that.  Consider:
>> >>
>> >> 1) fuse4fs mount an ext4 filesystem
>> >> 2) crash the fuse4fs server
>> >> <fuse4fs server restart stalls...>
>> >> 3) e2fsck -fy /dev/XXX deletes inode 17
>> >> 4) someone else mounts the fs, makes some changes that result in 17
>> >>    being reallocated, user says "OOOOOPS", unmounts it
>> >> 5) fuse4fs server finally restarts, and reconnects to the kernel
>> >>
>> >> Hey, inode 17 is now a different file!!
>> >>
>> >> So maybe the nodeid has to be an actual file handle.  Oh wait, no,
>> >> everything's (potentially) fine because fuse4fs supplied i_generation to
>> >> the kernel, and fuse_stale_inode will mark it bad if that happens.
>> >>
>> >> Hm ok then, at least there's a way out. :)
>> >>
>> >
>> > Right.
>> >
>> >> > The reason I made this wrong assumption is because fuse4fs *can*
>> >> > already use ext4 (64bit) file handle as nodeid, with existing FUSE protocol
>> >> > which is what my fuse passthough library [1] does.
>> >> >
>> >> > My claim was that although fuse4fs could support safe restart, which
>> >> > cannot read from recycled inode number with current FUSE protocol,
>> >> > doing so with FUSE_HANDLE protocol would express a commitment
>> >>
>> >> Pardon my naïvete, but what is FUSE_HANDLE?
>> >>
>> >> $ git grep -w FUSE_HANDLE fs
>> >> $
>> >
>> > Sorry, braino. I meant LOOKUP_HANDLE (or FUSE_LOOKUP_HANDLE):
>> > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdevel/CAJfpegvNZ6Z7uhuTdQ6quBaTOYNkAP8W_4yUY4L2JRAEKxEwOQ@mail.gmail.com/
>> >
>> > Which means to communicate a variable sized "nodeid"
>> > which can also be declared as an object id that survives server restart.
>> >
>> > Basically, the reason that I brought up LOOKUP_HANDLE is to
>> > properly support NFS export of fuse filesystems.
>> >
>> > My incentive was to support a proper fuse server restart/remount/re-export
>> > with the same fsid in /etc/exports, but this gives us a better starting point
>> > for fuse server restart/re-connect.
>>
>> Sorry for resurrecting (again!) this discussion.  I've been thinking about
>> this, and trying to get some initial RFC for this LOOKUP_HANDLE operation.
>> However, I feel there are other operations that will need to return this
>> new handle.
>>
>> For example, the FUSE_CREATE (for atomic_open) also returns a nodeid.
>> Doesn't this means that, if the user-space server supports the new
>> LOOKUP_HANDLE, it should also return an handle in reply to the CREATE
>> request?
>
> Yes, I think that's what it means.

Awesome, thank you for confirming this.

>> The same question applies for TMPFILE, LINK, etc.  Or is there
>> something special about the LOOKUP operation that I'm missing?
>>
>
> Any command returning fuse_entry_out.
>
> READDIRPLUS, MKNOD, MKDIR, SYMLINK

Right, I had this list, but totally missed READDIRPLUS.

> fuse_entry_out was extended once and fuse_reply_entry()
> sends the size of the struct.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting to extend
fuse_entry_out to add the new handle (a 'size' field + the actual handle).
That's probably a good idea.  I was working towards having the
LOOKUP_HANDLE to be similar to LOOKUP, but extending it so that it would
include:

 - An extra inarg: the parent directory handle.  (To be honest, I'm not
   really sure this would be needed.)
 - An extra outarg: for the actual handle.

With your suggestion, only the extra inarg would be required.

> However fuse_reply_create() sends it with fuse_open_out
> appended

This one should be fine...

> and fuse_add_direntry_plus() does not seem to write
> record size at all, so server and client will need to agree on the
> size of fuse_entry_out and this would need to be backward compat.
> If both server and client declare support for FUSE_LOOKUP_HANDLE
> it should be fine (?).

... yeah, this could be a bit trickier.  But I'll need to go look into it.

Thanks a lot for your comments, Amir.  I was trying to get an RFC out
soon(ish) to get early feedback, hoping to prevent me following wrong
paths.

Cheers,
-- 
Luís

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