Message-ID: <CAOQ4uxg7b0mupCVaouPXPGNN=Ji2XceeceUf8L6pW8+vq3uOMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2025 14:10:32 +0100
From: Amir Goldstein <amir73il@...il.com>
To: Luis Henriques <luis@...lia.com>
Cc: "Darrick J. Wong" <djwong@...nel.org>, Bernd Schubert <bernd@...ernd.com>, "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@....edu>, 
	Miklos Szeredi <miklos@...redi.hu>, Bernd Schubert <bschubert@....com>, linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org, 
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, Kevin Chen <kchen@....com>
Subject: Re: [RFC] Another take at restarting FUSE servers

On Tue, Nov 4, 2025 at 12:40 PM Luis Henriques <luis@...lia.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 16 2025, Amir Goldstein wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 4:53 AM Darrick J. Wong <djwong@...nel.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 10:41:31AM +0200, Amir Goldstein wrote:
> >> > On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 10:27 AM Bernd Schubert <bernd@...ernd.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On 9/15/25 09:07, Amir Goldstein wrote:
> >> > > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 4:58 PM Darrick J. Wong <djwong@...nel.org> wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 02:29:03PM +0200, Bernd Schubert wrote:
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> On 9/12/25 13:41, Amir Goldstein wrote:
> >> > > >>>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2025 at 12:31 PM Bernd Schubert <bernd@...ernd.com> wrote:
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> On 8/1/25 12:15, Luis Henriques wrote:
> >> > > >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 31 2025, Darrick J. Wong wrote:
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 09:04:58AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> >> > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 04:38:54PM -0700, Darrick J. Wong wrote:
> >> > > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>>>>> Just speaking for fuse2fs here -- that would be kinda nifty if libfuse
> >> > > >>>>>>>>> could restart itself.  It's unclear if doing so will actually enable us
> >> > > >>>>>>>>> to clear the condition that caused the failure in the first place, but I
> >> > > >>>>>>>>> suppose fuse2fs /does/ have e2fsck -fy at hand.  So maybe restarts
> >> > > >>>>>>>>> aren't totally crazy.
> >> > > >>>>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>>>> I'm trying to understand what the failure scenario is here.  Is this
> >> > > >>>>>>>> if the userspace fuse server (i.e., fuse2fs) has crashed?  If so, what
> >> > > >>>>>>>> is supposed to happen with respect to open files, metadata and data
> >> > > >>>>>>>> modifications which were in transit, etc.?  Sure, fuse2fs could run
> >> > > >>>>>>>> e2fsck -fy, but if there are dirty inode on the system, that's going
> >> > > >>>>>>>> potentally to be out of sync, right?
> >> > > >>>>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>>>> What are the recovery semantics that we hope to be able to provide?
> >> > > >>>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>>> <echoing what we said on the ext4 call this morning>
> >> > > >>>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>>> With iomap, most of the dirty state is in the kernel, so I think the new
> >> > > >>>>>>> fuse2fs instance would poke the kernel with FUSE_NOTIFY_RESTARTED, which
> >> > > >>>>>>> would initiate GETATTR requests on all the cached inodes to validate
> >> > > >>>>>>> that they still exist; and then resend all the unacknowledged requests
> >> > > >>>>>>> that were pending at the time.  It might be the case that you have to
> >> > > >>>>>>> that in the reverse order; I only know enough about the design of fuse
> >> > > >>>>>>> to suspect that to be true.
> >> > > >>>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>>> Anyhow once those are complete, I think we can resume operations with
> >> > > >>>>>>> the surviving inodes.  The ones that fail the GETATTR revalidation are
> >> > > >>>>>>> fuse_make_bad'd, which effectively revokes them.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Ah! Interesting, I have been playing a bit with sending LOOKUP requests,
> >> > > >>>>>> but probably GETATTR is a better option.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> So, are you currently working on any of this?  Are you implementing this
> >> > > >>>>>> new NOTIFY_RESTARTED request?  I guess it's time for me to have a closer
> >> > > >>>>>> look at fuse2fs too.
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> Sorry for joining the discussion late, I was totally occupied, day and
> >> > > >>>>> night. Added Kevin to CC, who is going to work on recovery on our
> >> > > >>>>> DDN side.
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> Issue with GETATTR and LOOKUP is that they need a path, but on fuse
> >> > > >>>>> server restart we want kernel to recover inodes and their lookup count.
> >> > > >>>>> Now inode recovery might be hard, because we currently only have a
> >> > > >>>>> 64-bit node-id - which is used my most fuse application as memory
> >> > > >>>>> pointer.
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> As Luis wrote, my issue with FUSE_NOTIFY_RESEND is that it just re-sends
> >> > > >>>>> outstanding requests. And that ends up in most cases in sending requests
> >> > > >>>>> with invalid node-IDs, that are casted and might provoke random memory
> >> > > >>>>> access on restart. Kind of the same issue why fuse nfs export or
> >> > > >>>>> open_by_handle_at doesn't work well right now.
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> So IMHO, what we really want is something like FUSE_LOOKUP_FH, which
> >> > > >>>>> would not return a 64-bit node ID, but a max 128 byte file handle.
> >> > > >>>>> And then FUSE_REVALIDATE_FH on server restart.
> >> > > >>>>> The file handles could be stored into the fuse inode and also used for
> >> > > >>>>> NFS export.
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> I *think* Amir had a similar idea, but I don't find the link quickly.
> >> > > >>>>> Adding Amir to CC.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> Or maybe it was Miklos' idea. Hard to keep track of this rolling thread:
> >> > > >>>> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdevel/CAJfpegvNZ6Z7uhuTdQ6quBaTOYNkAP8W_4yUY4L2JRAEKxEwOQ@mail.gmail.com/
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Thanks for the reference Amir! I even had been in that thread.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> Our short term plan is to add something like FUSE_NOTIFY_RESTART, which
> >> > > >>>>> will iterate over all superblock inodes and mark them with fuse_make_bad.
> >> > > >>>>> Any objections against that?
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> What if you actually /can/ reuse a nodeid after a restart?  Consider
> >> > > >> fuse4fs, where the nodeid is the on-disk inode number.  After a restart,
> >> > > >> you can reconnect the fuse_inode to the ondisk inode, assuming recovery
> >> > > >> didn't delete it, obviously.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > FUSE_LOOKUP_HANDLE is a contract.
> >> > > > If fuse4fs can reuse nodeid after restart then by all means, it should sign
> >> > > > this contract, otherwise there is no way for client to know that the
> >> > > > nodeids are persistent.
> >> > > > If fuse4fs_handle := nodeid, that will make implementing the lookup_handle()
> >> > > > API trivial.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> I suppose you could just ask for refreshed stat information and either
> >> > > >> the server gives it to you and the fuse_inode lives; or the server
> >> > > >> returns ENOENT and then we mark it bad.  But I'd have to see code
> >> > > >> patches to form a real opinion.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > You could make fuse4fs_handle := <nodeid:fuse_instance_id>
> >> > > > where fuse_instance_id can be its start time or random number.
> >> > > > for auto invalidate, or maybe the fuse_instance_id should be
> >> > > > a native part of FUSE protocol so that client knows to only invalidate
> >> > > > attr cache in case of fuse_instance_id change?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In any case, instead of a storm of revalidate messages after
> >> > > > server restart, do it lazily on demand.
> >> > >
> >> > > For a network file system, probably. For fuse4fs or other block
> >> > > based file systems, not sure. Darrick has the example of fsck.
> >> > > Let's assume fuse4fs runs with attribute and dentry timeouts > 0,
> >> > > fuse-server gets restarted, fsck'ed and some files get removed.
> >> > > Now reading these inodes would still work - wouldn't it
> >> > > be better to invalidate the cache before going into operation
> >> > > again?
> >> >
> >> > Forgive me, I was making a wrong assumption that fuse4fs
> >> > was using ext4 filehandle as nodeid, but of course it does not.
> >>
> >> Well now that you mention it, there /is/ a risk of shenanigans like
> >> that.  Consider:
> >>
> >> 1) fuse4fs mount an ext4 filesystem
> >> 2) crash the fuse4fs server
> >> <fuse4fs server restart stalls...>
> >> 3) e2fsck -fy /dev/XXX deletes inode 17
> >> 4) someone else mounts the fs, makes some changes that result in 17
> >>    being reallocated, user says "OOOOOPS", unmounts it
> >> 5) fuse4fs server finally restarts, and reconnects to the kernel
> >>
> >> Hey, inode 17 is now a different file!!
> >>
> >> So maybe the nodeid has to be an actual file handle.  Oh wait, no,
> >> everything's (potentially) fine because fuse4fs supplied i_generation to
> >> the kernel, and fuse_stale_inode will mark it bad if that happens.
> >>
> >> Hm ok then, at least there's a way out. :)
> >>
> >
> > Right.
> >
> >> > The reason I made this wrong assumption is because fuse4fs *can*
> >> > already use ext4 (64bit) file handle as nodeid, with existing FUSE protocol
> >> > which is what my fuse passthough library [1] does.
> >> >
> >> > My claim was that although fuse4fs could support safe restart, which
> >> > cannot read from recycled inode number with current FUSE protocol,
> >> > doing so with FUSE_HANDLE protocol would express a commitment
> >>
> >> Pardon my naïvete, but what is FUSE_HANDLE?
> >>
> >> $ git grep -w FUSE_HANDLE fs
> >> $
> >
> > Sorry, braino. I meant LOOKUP_HANDLE (or FUSE_LOOKUP_HANDLE):
> > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdevel/CAJfpegvNZ6Z7uhuTdQ6quBaTOYNkAP8W_4yUY4L2JRAEKxEwOQ@mail.gmail.com/
> >
> > Which means to communicate a variable sized "nodeid"
> > which can also be declared as an object id that survives server restart.
> >
> > Basically, the reason that I brought up LOOKUP_HANDLE is to
> > properly support NFS export of fuse filesystems.
> >
> > My incentive was to support a proper fuse server restart/remount/re-export
> > with the same fsid in /etc/exports, but this gives us a better starting point
> > for fuse server restart/re-connect.
>
> Sorry for resurrecting (again!) this discussion.  I've been thinking about
> this, and trying to get some initial RFC for this LOOKUP_HANDLE operation.
> However, I feel there are other operations that will need to return this
> new handle.
>
> For example, the FUSE_CREATE (for atomic_open) also returns a nodeid.
> Doesn't this means that, if the user-space server supports the new
> LOOKUP_HANDLE, it should also return an handle in reply to the CREATE
> request?

Yes, I think that's what it means.

> The same question applies for TMPFILE, LINK, etc.  Or is there
> something special about the LOOKUP operation that I'm missing?
>

Any command returning fuse_entry_out.

READDIRPLUS, MKNOD, MKDIR, SYMLINK

fuse_entry_out was extended once and fuse_reply_entry()
sends the size of the struct.
However fuse_reply_create() sends it with fuse_open_out
appended and fuse_add_direntry_plus() does not seem to write
record size at all, so server and client will need to agree on the
size of fuse_entry_out and this would need to be backward compat.
If both server and client declare support for FUSE_LOOKUP_HANDLE
it should be fine (?).

Thanks,
Amir.

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