Message-ID: <55E106DC.5040802@redhat.com>
Date:	Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:11:56 -0400
From:	Vlad Yasevich <vyasevic@...hat.com>
To:	Nikolay Aleksandrov <nikolay@...ulusnetworks.com>
CC:	roopa <roopa@...ulusnetworks.com>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
	toshiaki.makita1@...il.com, stephen@...workplumber.org,
	bridge@...ts.linux-foundation.org, wkok@...ulusnetworks.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next v2] bridge: vlan: allow to suppress local mac
 install for all vlans

On 08/28/2015 11:26 AM, Nikolay Aleksandrov wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Vlad Yasevich <vyasevic@...hat.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 08/27/2015 10:17 PM, Nikolay Aleksandrov wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 27, 2015, at 4:47 PM, Vlad Yasevich <vyasevic@...hat.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 08/27/2015 05:02 PM, Nikolay Aleksandrov wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 9:57 PM, roopa <roopa@...ulusnetworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/26/15, 4:33 AM, Nikolay Aleksandrov wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 11:06 PM, David Miller <davem@...emloft.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Nikolay Aleksandrov <nikolay@...ulusnetworks.com>
>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 22:28:16 -0700
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Certainly, that should be done and I will look into it, but the
>>>>>>>>> essence of this patch is a bit different. The problem here is not
>>>>>>>>> the size of the fdb entries, it’s more the number of them - having
>>>>>>>>> 96000 entries (even if they were 1 byte ones) is just way too much
>>>>>>>>> especially when the fdb hash size is small and static. We could work
>>>>>>>>> on making it dynamic though, but still these type of local entries
>>>>>>>>> per vlan per port can easily be avoided with this option.
>>>>>>>> 96000 bits can be stored in 12k.  Get where I'm going with this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Look at the problem sideways.
>>>>>>> Oh okay, I misunderstood your previous comment. I’ll look into that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just wanted to add the other problems we have had with keeping these macs (mostly from userspace POV):
>>>>>> - add/del netlink notification storms
>>>>>> - and large netlink dumps
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition to in-kernel optimizations, will be nice to have a solution that reduces the burden on userspace. That will need a newer netlink dump format for fdbs. Considering all the changes needed, Nikolays patch seems less intrusive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, we need to take these into account as well. I’ll continue the discussion on this (or restart it) because
>>>>> I looked into using a bitmap for the local entries only and while it fixes the scalability issue, it presents
>>>>> a few new ones which are mostly related to the fact that these entries now exist only without a vlan
>>>>> and if a new mac comes along which matches one of these but is in a vlan, the entry will get created
>>>>> in br_fdb_update() unless we add a second lookup, but that will slow down the learning path.
>>>>> Also this change requires an update of every fdb function that uses the vid as a key (every fdb function?!)
>>>>> because now we can have the mac in two places instead of one which is a pretty big churn with lots
>>>>> of conditionals all over the place and I don’t like it. Adding this complexity for the local addresses only
>>>>> seems like an overkill, so I think to drop this issue for now.
>>>>
>>>> I seem to recall Roopa and I and maybe a few others have discussing this a few
>>>> years ago at plumbers, I can't remember the details any more.  All these local
>>>> addresses add a ton of confusion.  Does anyone (Stephen?) remember what the
>>>> original reason was for all these local addresses? I wonder if we can have
>>>> a nob to disable all of them (not just per vlan)?  That might be cleaner and
>>>> easier to swallow.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right, this would be the easiest way and if the others agree - I’ll post a patch for it so we can
>>> have some way to resolve it today and even if we fix the scalability issue, this is still a valid case
>>> that some people don’t want local fdbs installed automatically.
>>> Any objections to this ?
>>>
>>>>> This patch (that works around the initial problem) also has these issues.
>>>>> Note that one way to take care of this in a more straight-forward way would be to have each entry
>>>>> with some sort of a bitmap (like Vlad has tried earlier) and then we can combine the paths so most
>>>>> of these issues disappear, but that will not be easy as was already commented earlier. I’ve looked
>>>>> briefly into doing this with rhashtable so we can keep the memory footprint for each entry relatively
>>>>> small but it still affects the performance and we can have thousands of resizes happening. 
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, one of the earlier approaches that I've tried (before rhashtable was
>>>> in the kernel) was to have a hash of vlan ids each with a data structure
>>>> pointing to a list of ports for a given vlan as well as a list of fdbs for
>>>> a given vlan.  As far as scalability goes, that's really the best approach.
>>>> It would also allow us to do packet accounting per vlan.  The only concern
>>>> at the time was performance of ingress lookup.   I think rhashtables might
>>>> help with this as well as ability to grow the footprint of the vlan hash
>>>> table dynamically.
>>>>
>>>> -vlad
>>>>
>>> I’ll look into it but I’m guessing the learning will become a more complicated process with additional 
>>> allocations and some hash handling.
>>
>> I don't remember learning being all that complicated.  The hash only changed under
>> rtnl when vlans were added/removed.  The nice this is that we wouldn't need
>> to rebalance, because if the vlan is removed all fdb links get removed too.  They
>> don't move to another bucket (But that was with static hash.  Need to look at rhash in
>> more detail).
>>
>> If you want, I might still have patches hanging around on my machine that had a hash
>> table implementation.  I can send them to you.
>>
>> -vlad
>>
> 
> :-) Okay, I’m putting the crystal ball away. If you could send me these patches it’d be great so
> I don’t have to start this from scratch.
> 

So, I forgot that I lost an old disk that had all that code, so I am a bit bummed about
that.  I did however find the series that got posted.
http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg219737.html

That was the series where I briefly switch from bitmaps to hash and list.
However, I see that the fdb code that was playing with never got posted...

Sorry.

-vlad

> Thanks,
>  Nik
> 
>>>
>>>>> On the notification side if we can fix that, we can actually delete the 96000 entries without creating a
>>>>> huge notification storm and do a user-land workaround of the original issue, so I’ll look into that next.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any comments or ideas are very welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Nik
> 

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