netdev - Re: [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support

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Message-ID: <20201103094224.6de1470d@redhat.com>
Date:   Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:42:24 +0100
From:   Jiri Benc <jbenc@...hat.com>
To:     Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@...il.com>
Cc:     David Ahern <dsahern@...il.com>, Hangbin Liu <haliu@...hat.com>,
        Stephen Hemminger <stephen@...workplumber.org>,
        Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>,
        Martin KaFai Lau <kafai@...com>,
        Song Liu <songliubraving@...com>, Yonghong Song <yhs@...com>,
        David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Jesper Dangaard Brouer <brouer@...hat.com>,
        Networking <netdev@...r.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@...r.kernel.org>,
        Andrii Nakryiko <andrii@...nel.org>,
        Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support

On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:58:06 -0800, Andrii Nakryiko wrote:
> But I don't think I got a real answer as to what's the exact reason
> against the submodule. Like what "inappropriate" even means in this
> case? Jesper's security argument so far was the only objective
> criteria, as far as I can tell.

It's the fundamental objection. Distributions in general have the "no
bundled libraries" policy. It is sometimes annoying but it helps to
understand that the policy is not a whim of distros, it's coming from
years of experience with package maintenance for security and stability.

> But I also see that using libbpf through submodule gives iproute2
> exact control over which version of libbpf is being used. And that
> does not depend at all on any specific Linux distribution, its
> version, LTS vs non-LTS, etc. iproute2 will just work the same across
> all of them. So matches your stated goals very directly and
> explicitly.

If you take this route, the end result would be all dependencies for
all projects being included as submodules and bundled. At the first
sight, this sounds easier for the developers. Why bother with dynamic
linking at all? Everything can be linked statically.

The result would be nightmare for both distros and users. No timely
security updates possible, critical bugs not being fixed in some
programs, etc. There is enough experience with this kind of setup to
conclude it is not the right way to go.

Yes, dynamic linking is initially more work for developers of both apps
and libraries. However, it pays off over time - there's no need to keep
track of security and other important fixes in the dependencies, it
comes for free from the distro work.

Btw, taking the bundling to the extreme, every app could bundle its own
well tested and compatible kernel version and be run in a VM. This
might sound far fetched but there were actual attempts to do that. It
didn't take off; I think part of the reason was that the Linux kernel
is very good in keeping its APIs stable.

And I'm convinced this is the way to go for libraries, too: put an
emphasis on API stability. Make it easy to get consumed and updated
under the hood. Everybody wins this way.

 Jiri