lists.openwall.net   lists  /  announce  owl-users  owl-dev  john-users  john-dev  passwdqc-users  yescrypt  popa3d-users  /  oss-security  kernel-hardening  musl  sabotage  tlsify  passwords  /  crypt-dev  xvendor  /  Bugtraq  Full-Disclosure  linux-kernel  linux-netdev  linux-ext4  linux-hardening  PHC 
Open Source and information security mailing list archives
 
Hash Suite for Android: free password hash cracker in your pocket
[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 20:15:51 +0400
From: Solar Designer <solar@...nwall.com>
To: discussions@...sword-hashing.net
Subject: die area estimates (Re: [PHC] GPU multiplication speed?)

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:03:37AM -0500, Bill Cox wrote:
> 8 or 16 32x32->64 multipliers will never take up much area on a 28nm
> ASIC compared to the cache or external memories feeding them  A 4KiB
> cache should be a few times bigger, I think.  You're going to have to
> go massively parallel before they add up to much area, and the
> memories involved will have to be tiny.  If you're able to do a GPU
> optimized hashing algorithm, the multipliers will probably add up to
> some real defense.

http://forums.parallella.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=310

"out of 10mm^2 for a 64 core chip at 28nm, approximately:
2mm^2 for IO
4mm^2 for memory
The remaining 40% is split between the following components: register
file(big), FPU(big), NOC, memory cross-bar, "stuff"."

The "memory" mentioned above is 64*32 KiB = 2 MiB of SRAM, and the 64
FPUs contain a 32x32->32 multiplier each (may be used for integer or for
single-precision floating-point).  If "FPU(big)" is half of "the
remaining 40%" and the 32x32->32 multiplier is half the FPU size, this
means that a 32x32->32 multiplier corresponds to roughly 8 KiB SRAM,
and a 32x32->64 might correspond to 16 KiB SRAM, in terms of die area.

This is somewhat inconsistent with your estimate above.  Do you think
the multiplier takes a smaller portion of "the remaining 40%" above?
(We can just ask Andreas.)

If we estimate 1 bit of SRAM to be roughly the same as a 1-bit full
adder, then a trivial 32x32->64 multiplier could be equivalent to around
1 KiB of SRAM in terms of die area.  I doubt it's possible to do much
smaller without significantly increasing the latency.  On the other
hand, carry-save adders would probably increase die area.  BTW, the
other day I was looking at ("2.6.4 Multipliers"):

http://www10.edacafe.com/book/ASIC/Book/Book/Book/CH02/CH02.6.php?interstitial_displayed=Yes

On Haswell, we have 4x 32x32->64 multipliers per 256-bit SIMD vector,
which translates to 4 KiB to 64 KiB SRAM in terms of die area, given the
range of estimates above.  We also have 32 KiB of L1 data cache per
core.  So these might be on par, and by keeping the multipliers fully
busy we might be doubling the required die area in ASIC, if we don't
count the DRAM (such as because we're only using so little that its die
area is relatively small, due to it being a few times smaller per-bit).

And yes, in absolute terms this is very little.  For example, the
portion of one Haswell core that we'd use could correspond to 0.1 mm^2
in 28nm ASIC.  So 4000 of these would fit on a 20x20 mm die.  This would
then resemble a speedup that we're currently seeing when cracking older
hashes on GPU vs. computing them on one CPU core.  However, considering
that it'd be on ASIC rather than on GPU, and that bigger speedup is
possibly for currently popular hashes on ASIC, this is an improvement.

Can we do better?  We could add AES-NI to the mix, but it'd probably be
comparable to a multiplier in terms of die area.  SSSE3 shuffle is nice,
but mostly against pre-existing architectures lacking a circuit with
such specifics.  What else?

Indeed, using more memory is the solution when it's available, but I am
trying to do whatever practical for extremely low memory settings as well.

Alexander

Powered by blists - more mailing lists