lists.openwall.net   lists  /  announce  owl-users  owl-dev  john-users  john-dev  passwdqc-users  yescrypt  popa3d-users  /  oss-security  kernel-hardening  musl  sabotage  tlsify  passwords  /  crypt-dev  xvendor  /  Bugtraq  Full-Disclosure  linux-kernel  linux-netdev  linux-ext4  linux-hardening  PHC 
Open Source and information security mailing list archives
 
Hash Suite for Android: free password hash cracker in your pocket
[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 17:24:35 +0100
From: Thomas Pornin <pornin@...et.org>
To: discussions@...sword-hashing.net
Subject: Re: [PHC] Re: Some KDF stumbling blocks, plus Common

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:45:06PM +0000, Adam Back wrote:
> A master secret that could break all wallets is not something that
> would be easily accepted in a system with security requirements as
> high as bitcoins.  That requires all users to trust some central
> entity to delete the factorisation.

That kind of thing could be handled "procedurally". For instance, some
sort of ceremony where a few well-known persons gather together (people
with high programming expertise), implement a RSA modulus generator that
does not save the private factors, and run it. This is all done with
auditors and witnesses and a camera to upload the whole thing to youtube
afterwards. This could be organized during some security event, e.g.
Passwords15 or something like that (note: make sure that the beer is
made available only _after_ the procedure).

Maybe there is some group RSA key pair generation algorithm that could
be used ? I'll have to look it up (I had not found anything previously,
but maybe I did not look hard enough).


> Another alternative is to use an RSA UFO however their characteristics
> are poor, and also vulnerable to speedup via pre-computation (of
> partial factoring).

I had investigated it, but partial factoring really kills the thing: if
we work modulo a big n and hash password m with m^e mod n, and the
adversary knows one prime factor r of n, then he can work modulo r;
given m^e mod n, he can compute m^e mod r, and since r is prime he can
obtain m mod r, which is deadlier than a simple speedup.



Thinking more about it, I came to conclusion that my blinding is not
really different from yours; it is rather an improvement; but it can
extend the usability. Let's define some notations:

  Let n = pq be some big composite integer. Let w be the work factor,
  and let e be an exponent derived from w. In your proposal,
  e = (2^w) - 1 and (I suppose) such that e is relatively prime to both
  p-1 and q-1; thus e is a valid RSA exponent and exponentiation with e
  is a permutation of integers modulo n. In Makwa, I set e = 2^w and I
  arrange for p and q to be both equal to 3 modulo 4; in that case,
  exponentiation with e is a permutation of quadratic residues modulo n
  (about 1/4th of all integers modulo n are quadratic residues).

  I chose e = 2^w because it made optimal implementation easier. With
  e = 2^w - 1, in a square-and-multiply algorithm, you can get some
  speedup with window-based optimizations, if you use enough RAM. The
  speedup is slight (you save some multiplications but still have to
  compute the squarings) but I did not want some snarky cryptographer to
  point it out and tout it as a "break" so I went to e = 2^w, where only
  the squarings remain. The flip side of it is that I need a Blum
  modulus, and must take care of living in QR(n) (the quadratic
  residues), so the very first squaring is still done client-side.

  Anyway, the exact choice of e does not matter much here. Hashing of
  password pw is done by padding pw into some integer m modulo n and
  then computing m^e mod n (the padding is very important here because
  RSA and Rabin are malleable, meaning that (m^e)*(m'^e) = (m*m')^e, so
  without a proper padding, an attacker running an exhaustive search
  might be able to mutualize some exponentiations).

Once such a function is defined, we want to be able to delegate the
bulk work to a potentially hostile external server. So we use blinding.
A blinding pair (x,y) is such that y = x^e mod n. If you have such a
pair, then the procedure is simple:

  - compute u = x*m mod n
  - send u to the delegation server (along with n and w)
  - the delegation server returns v = (x*m)^e mod n
  - compute the hash value h = v/y mod n

There can be some extra conditions on (x,y) to avoid leakage (e.g. in
Makwa, x and m must be quadratic residues).

Now the creation of the blinding pair is a puzzler, because of the
following:

  - The delegation server, being untrusted, MUST NOT learn the value
    x (first element of the blinding pair). Otherwise, it could deduce
    m from the received value u.

  - A given blinding pair (x,y) may be used repeatedly for a given
    password m, but not for two distinct passwords m1 and m2; otherwise,
    the delegation server (or an eavesdropper) may learn m1/m2 and then
    deduce things about both m1 and m2 (this depends heavily on the
    details of the padding).

  - Generating a new random blinding pair is as expensive as computing
    a hash. It can be done efficiently if you know p and q, but then,
    if you know p and q, you can also compute the whole hash yourself.

As I understand it, the usage context that we are talking about is that
of a brain wallet, which is similar (conceptually) to password-based
encryption for a file containing some confidential data (the wallet
simplifies things by "just" generating the ECDSA private key directly
instead of producing a symmetric key to encrypt a random ECDSA private
key, but that does not change things much here). Then I confess that
I don't really see how you can use your blinding in that setup:

  - A blinding pair can be generated efficiently when n itself is
    produced (with the knowledge of the factors p and q). However, one
    has to assume that the hashing will be performed at a time when p
    and q are no longer available, because otherwise you could use p and
    q to compute m^e efficiently, without needing any delegation.

  - Due to the cost of generating on-the-fly a random blinding pair when
    p and q are not known, it does not make much sense to do that at
    hashing time: instead of producing a new blinding pair, just use
    your CPU to compute the hash directly, without needing delegation.

  - But since the x value in a blinding pair must be kept secret, then
    you must have some safe storage for that, which raises the question:
    if you have a safe storage for a secret value, why oh why would you
    use password-based KDF ? Simply store your ECDSA private key there,
    and be done with it.

As far as I can see, in the brain wallet scenario, your proposal can be
summarized as follows (it is possible that I did not get it right, so
please correct me if that's the case):

  * You generate a new n, x, and y when the password is chosen or
    changed.

  * The wallet has some local storage, where (x,y) is stored. We assume
    that any compromise of this storage will be through a wholesome
    theft of some device, which will not go unnoticed.

  * Whenever you need to hash m, you use the stored blinding pair for
    delegation. An hostile delegation server learns nothing.

  * If the wallet is stolen then the thief must still pay the full
    price of computing the expensive hash (and he could already have
    done it with the ECDSA public key alone).

  * HOWEVER, if the device thief also has access to an instance of the
    delegation protocol (through eavesdropping or collusion with the
    delegation server), then he gets both x and x*m mod n, from which he
    immediately deduces m. If the padding that transforms the password
    pw to m is some (fast) hash, then the attacker does not get the
    password itself, but a way to run a fast dictionary attack, which is
    almost as good (or bad, depending on point of view).

This last point is the crucial one. This is the one that my proposal
tries to fix.

Now enters Makwa. Well, not exactly Makwa; the core Makwa function is
the description of the padding and squarings. The delegation can be
thought of as an implementation issue. Yet, in the Makwa proposal, I
also describe (and implement) a mechanism for delegation, that expands
on the idea of the blinding pairs. The main idea is that if (x,y) and
(x',y') are blinding pairs, then so is (x*x',y*y').

  + Instead of generating one blinding pair, I generate 300 of them. If
    this is done at the same time as n is generated, then this is still
    reasonably efficient. If the factors p and q are not known, the 300
    pairs can still be produced, at the same cost as 300 full hashes.

  + Whenever the password must be hashed, a new random blinding pair is
    produced, by multiplying together a random selection of some of the
    300 pre-generated pairs. That new pair is used for one delegation,
    then discarded. The generation of such a pair is more expensive than
    its actual use, but still tolerable in many context (it amounts to
    300 multiplications modulo n, about half the cost a RSA private key
    operation).

  + The 300 "source" blinding pairs need no confidential storage. They
    can even be shared between several users (subject to the trust issue
    about proper generation of n and discarding of the prime factors).

This system increases some costs, but fixes the "secure storage" issue.
If a brain wallet uses this delegation system, then the device thief no
longer gains anything by stealing the device, even if he colludes with
the delegation server. This actually allows the device to be
"virtualized": since it contains only public data, you can upload it on
some server, and the "brain wallet" really becomes a brain-only wallet.

When I designed Makwa, I primarily focused on the "authentication
server" scenario, in which the server will normally produce its own
modulus n and use it for hashing the passwords of thousands (or
millions) of users. However, it can still be applied to password-based
encryption. Though my delegation mechanism has some non-negligible
storage costs (about 150 kB for the 300 source pairs), this is only
public data that can be shared with other users, so I believe that cost
can be easily absorbed in many contexts.


Does all of this makes sense ?


> ps it would be nice if could cite my proposal if you are still able to
> revise the paper submission as I presume it predates your work, and is
> strongly related.

I was not planning of making a new package version, but if I do then
I'll be sure to include some reference to you. Do you have some
"official" publication beyond the Web forum entry quoted earlier ?


(As Leibniz once remarked, new ideas are always "floating around" so
when you think of some new scientific advance, it is almost guaranteed
that there is someone, somewhere else, thinking the same thing at the
same time. In my case, I came upon Makwa, including its delegation
system, in March 2013. The weather was inordinately mild and even the
snow was thawing, so I was walking back from work. Nietzsche has
famously said that "all truly great thoughts are conceived while
walking"; I don't know if Makwa qualifies as a "truly great thought" but
I can confirm that walking is the good way to get ideas.)


	--Thomas Pornin

Powered by blists - more mailing lists