Message-ID: <CADPMZDARZ0YhdRey_s5NJMzm6jXK_YFeNy2S7KOAgFS46oj=AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 05:55:34 -0500
From: denis bider <denisbider.ietf@...il.com>
To: discussions@...sword-hashing.net
Subject: Re: [PHC] How to: A super-efficient cryptographic accumulator?

Actually... I think with the hash function construction, I’ve actually
shown one of two things:

(a) The recognizer function, F(x) => word32, can be as small as the size of
the hash function and its internal state.

(b) Alternately, F(x) => word32 cannot be implemented using a  hash function
.

The reasoning:

Yes, if the number of passwords is N, then X would be expected to be 32*N
bits in size. But in order to calculate SHA256(X | Pcandidate), we do not
need X. We just need the last internal state of SHA256, which is much
smaller.

Therefore, if we have infinite computing power to generate it, a recognizer
function F(x) can either be implemented in a compact size that is both fast
and small to use, OR we can never find X for a large enough number of
passwords because the internal state of a hash function is too small.


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 4:30 AM, denis bider <denisbider.ietf@...il.com>
wrote:

> Yeah, but... I'm *still* not so sure. :) People said we couldn't have a
> digital currency either! The coins would be GIGABYTES in length! :D
>
> This is not fractal compression because we do not intend to decompress. We
> are definitely throwing away data. What we want is a compressed *oracle*,
> however.
>
> The size of X I estimated if using a hash function (8 bytes?!) was clearly
> ridiculous. What I proposed was to generate X by brute-forcing it as a
> counter input to a pseudo-random function that generates a string 32*N bits
> in size. If N is the number of passwords we are encoding, then to encode 1
> billion passwords, the random string needs to have 32 billion bits - and
> they all must be zero. Clearly, an X that we arrive at this way must be
> about 32 billion bits in size. So, uh... 4 gigabytes.
>
> But what if... say... instead of a hash function - *mod N* arithmetic?
>
> Suppose we represent the passwords we want to store using primes P1, P2,
> ... Pn. We generate:
>
> X = P1 * P2 * ... * Pn *mod N*
>
> Of course, when we do "*mod N*", we are losing information. But how fast?
>
> Are you sure that arguments against fractal compression also apply to
> highly lossy compression like this? ZIP won't compress a PNG, but JPG will
> ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 3:56 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@....freebsd.dk>
> wrote:
>
>> --------
>> In message <CADPMZDBq_CsD2ztxBX4J0FZLyf8Stm+Bz=AOPs6Adq7frGmi1g@...l.
>> gmail.com>, denis bider writ
>> es:
>>
>> >For example, the best measure
>> >for password safety is probably to prevent users from using any of
>> billions
>> >of known revealed passwords, but the compressed database is 5 GB in size:
>> >[...]
>> >Now. I sort of have this intuition that it=E2=80=99s possible to
>> compress this crap
>> >into 20 bytes.
>>
>> This is basically the old "fractal compression" idea all over again.
>>
>> It always goes more or less like this:
>>
>> 1. Look at the digits of PI or E, they look awfully random and are
>>    very hard to compress.
>>
>> 2. Yet, we have this incredibly simple formula for generating them
>>    (insert favourite PI or E expression here).
>>
>> 3. What an amazing compression ratio!
>>
>> 4. There must be some function which similarly emits the MPG stream
>>    of Lord Of The Rings
>>
>> 5. Profit!
>>
>> This thinking suffers both from logical fallacies and factual
>> misunderstandings.
>>
>> Ad 1: While it is generally a good indicator of entropy that you
>> cannot compress some data, it is not a proof that the data is random,
>> you may simply be using the wrong compression algorithm.
>>
>> Ad 2: Deterministically generated data, no matter what its entropy
>> might be, is never random, even when you do not know the formula
>> which generated the data.
>>
>> Ad 3: The reason the compression ratio is so amazing is that PI
>> or E has infinite length.  Normally we use only about 8-16 digits
>> of either and it's way more compact than your formula to just
>> write down those digits.  (Footnote: 355/113)
>>
>> Ad 4: Yes, there is undoubtedly such a function, but there is no
>> reason to think that it is significantly smaller than the *finite*
>> length bitstream you are trying to produce with it.
>>
>> Ad 5: No, because finding the magic LOTR function has complexity
>> far exceeding the size of the known universe.
>>
>> Poul-Henning
>>
>> --
>> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>> phk@...eBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
>> incompetence.
>>
>
>

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