Message-Id: <1189138022.7459.114.camel@cataral>
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 06:07:02 +0200
From: ph1atka5t <ph1atka5t@...log.org>
To: Timo Schoeler <timo.schoeler@...cworks.net>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: What do you guys make of this?

Timo, Joel, all, 

Timo, I am under the impression you worked and lived in Germany. Am I
wrong? 

Joel, I'd loved I had a better and more precise feeling on Russia from
you. 


I am no Russian, and at first I felt not even involved in the
discussion. 

It is probably good a mailing list does not allow to know your age and
your background. I must say I fully agree on that. 

For myself, I am 29. I'm living in Europe, as Timo probably did.
Speaking about nukes... Fine. USSR and USA were never any playground for
those two super-powers. Just think about Afghanistan, Cuba and Korea as
examples. I was 12 in 1989. My parents tried to explain me what was
going on on TV. I bet you think I am as stupid and uneducated I was at
that time. With years I tried to learn more and more -- which sometimes
means to expect less and less. And I certainly did not become either a
communist or a capitalist. Rather, a self-taught-man who think people
never wanted what their leaders wanted for them -- or for themselves. 

There's always been a fight between people and their leaders. So is it
in Russia. And maybe is it so in the US. Oh, and how is it now in
Merkel's Germany or in Sarkozy's France? Do you think all Italians are
in love with Berlusconi? 

> No. It was 'Soviet Union', not 'Russia'.

My clock says it is Sept. 7th., *2007*. What about yours? Sorry. Look to
the future. 

> > Well, Russia is no longer a super power,
> 
> Well, actually, it is. It has thousands of nuclear warheads, it has more 
> advanced fighter jets and bombers than the US, it has more advanced 
> space technology and ICBMs, submarines, education & healthcare...

The last two points I find rather significant. Space technology is as
important as education and healthcare? I don't care about Mars or the
Moon. 

There is no perfect system. This is what mankind is all about.
Perfection is for the weaks and the dreamers. It's boring. 

> It has _plenty_ of ressources the US has to go to war for (natural gas, 
> oil, etc).

Like Alaska? Environment certainly does not matter as much as space
technology. 

> > the fall from which left
> > Putin feeling excluded. He's always wanted to get Russia back to superpower
> > status, he wants his Mother Russia to be significant again.
> 
> Propaganda.

Irrelevant. AFAIK, Russia has always wanted itself to be a superpower,
even when weak. Just read the books. Also, Russia has always considered
itself a retarded country. I am afraid things might look a little more
subtle than what you think. 

I think the word 'superpower' *is* propaganda in itself. China would
like to be a superpower, India and Brasil also, but the truth is that
none of them will have the savagery to do so. Being a superpower needs
some savagery. It doesn't need playing in your neighbor's playground. 

> > For years, the Russian economy was cash strapped.
> 
> No. It suffered from a few people that stole what the people's was.

True. Isn't it what oligarchy is all about in *so-called* democracies?
To be sure: how much does it cost to be elected in <your-country /
replace with your favourite country>? How much is 42 x 44? 

> > Just recently Putin
> > revamped the entire tax system and implemented a 12% flat tax. For the first
> > time since the collapse, the tax revenues are POURING in. They now have
> > enough gas to fuel a plane, and now they want to get back into being viewed
> > as a superpower, to be 'feared', they desperately want to matter again, to
> > be important.
> > 
> > So, they're acting out in an aggressive manner - using tried and true cold
> > war era tactics.  It comes across to me as childish, throwing a fit just to
> > get attention.

Huhu. Careful guys! I am a superpower! I'm gonna invade Iraq! "-- What
you say Colin? You sure? They got weapons of mass destruction?" 

For myself, I don't think of the former USSR (or Russia) or the US being
any superpower. I mean, Russia (resp. US) is not able to rule Chechnya
(resp. Iraq). Are Iraq or Chechnya any *under*powers? Could we be
serious guys? Just for a minute? Is it so sad there's no superpower in
the world? Isn't that what you're missing at all? 

> If _that_ is childish, what is the US's behaviour then? Oh, sorry, I 
> forgot: Children usually don't rape, kill and spread war^H^H^Hdemocracy.

I'm pretty sure I missed your point. May we agree on the fact that
democracy rise from the people itself? 

> > It is not propaganda, Russia is just trying to say "We're BAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!
> > And this time, we've got 31337 H4x0rz!"
> 
> Blah. Blahblah.

Agree. 

> > Joel Helgeson
> > 952-858-9111
> 
> 9/11?

Oh man! Wasn't there any disaster in history even worse than 9/11? 
-- "Hey! Foreign policy is a complicated thing man. South America is
finally a much more peaceful place than New-York or Bagdad." I do agree
3000 people killed by fanatic people is already untenable. Like 3000+
GI's killed in Iraq are. Maybe like 6 millions Jews assassinated in
Europe were? 

Is it really the place to race for the horror prize? 

-- ph1atka5t. 

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