linux-kernel - Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1307171017580.8258@kaball.uk.xensource.com>
Date:	Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:38:55 +0100
From:	Stefano Stabellini <stefano.stabellini@...citrix.com>
To:	Jiri Kosina <jkosina@...e.cz>
CC:	Stefano Stabellini <stefano.stabellini@...citrix.com>,
	Sarah Sharp <sarah.a.sharp@...ux.intel.com>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>, Chris Ball <cjb@...top.org>,
	Darren Hart <dvhart@...ux.intel.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>,
	Guenter Roeck <linux@...ck-us.net>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	Dave Jones <davej@...hat.com>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	stable <stable@...r.kernel.org>,
	<ksummit-2013-discuss@...ts.linuxfoundation.org>,
	Willy Tarreau <w@....eu>
Subject: Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Jiri Kosina wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2013, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> 
> > > > I think that it's hurting Linux and in particular it's hurting
> > > > attracting new talents.
> > > 
> > > Then why do we have the largest # of developers than any other Open
> > > Source project?
> > 
> > Because Linux is the most widely used kernel, it's everywhere from
> > embedded devices to supercomputers.
> 
> And that's because ... ?
> 
> Yes, because the community has been very open since its very beginning 
> (and this is not "being open about why I hate you personally", but this is 
> "being open about what I think about your code").

Being open about what I think about your code doesn't mean that I can
feel free to verbally attack you.


> Plus there is a *LOT* of humor and sarcasm in all that. Which just 
> contributes to working on linux kernel being fun. I'd absolutely like to 
> keep that spirit.
> 
> If you guys now start telling others what is allowed and what is forbidden 
> to say, you are going to destroy this completely.
> 
> I don't want to be a part of a community where you have to read a legal 
> code before you can speak without fear of being accused of verbal 
> violence.
> 
> This just doesn't fit into how people of my culture see the world; hence, 
> I may even feel offended by Sarah's proposal (i.e. being very restrictive 
> about what I am allowed to say), actually. I like openness, I like 
> sarcasm, I like fun. Anyone who is trying to forbid this just doesn't fit 
> into my culture.

We should be able to prevent verbal abuses without involving legal,
right?
Would a NETIQUETTE file be enough, or would you consider that "legal
code"?


> > > Honestly, I think LKML over the years has become more tame. Yeah, back
> > > in 2005 it was rather harsh, but I don't really see that anymore. I
> > > don't see the nasty flame wars going on. Everything seems to be focused
> > > more on the technical side, and there's really very little personal
> > > attacks out there. Sure, with 15,000 emails a month, you get a few. And
> > > Linus will get fed up and burst. But they are really few and far
> > > between. And sometimes, a Linus burst gets things moving along much
> > > faster than being "professional". You think ARM would have gotten their
> > > act together as quick as they did if Linus didn't curse them out and
> > > threaten to stop pulling their crap?
> >  
> > I think there is a way to get the point across without cursing.
> 
> Maybe there is, maybe there is not.
> 
> I am not cursing in my e-mails, you are probably neither. Linus is. Others 
> are.
> 
> So what? He/they believe they achieves their goal through that mode of 
> operation (and very often they indeed do), as so do we, through different 
> means of communication.
> 
> No need to change anything anywhere. Please let everyone express their 
> feelings the way the believe it's best for achieving their goals, and do 
> the same.

There is a very fine line between cursing and what people might perceive
as a personal attack.
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/