Message-Id: <201706130017.29023@pali>
Date:   Tue, 13 Jun 2017 00:17:28 +0200
From:   Pali Rohár <pali.rohar@...il.com>
To:     Darren Hart <dvhart@...radead.org>
Cc:     "Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
        Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Mario Limonciello <mario_limonciello@...l.com>,
        Andy Shevchenko <andriy.shevchenko@...ux.intel.com>,
        Rafael Wysocki <rjw@...ysocki.net>,
        Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>,
        LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        platform-driver-x86@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: WMI and Kernel:User interface

On Monday 12 June 2017 19:02:49 Darren Hart wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 12:36:40PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > On Saturday 10 June 2017 02:46:41 Darren Hart wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 09, 2017 at 08:41:51AM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Jun 03, 2017 at 12:50:58PM -0700, Darren Hart wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 07:13:41AM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman
> > > > > 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 04:16:39PM -0700, Darren Hart wrote:
> > > > > > > Linus and Greg,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > We are in the process of redesigning the Windows
> > > > > > > Management Instrumentation (WMI) [1] system in the
> > > > > > > kernel. WMI is the Microsoft implementation of Web-Based
> > > > > > > Enterprise Management (WBEM). We are looking to provide
> > > > > > > WMI access to userspace, while allowing the kernel to
> > > > > > > filter requests that conflict with its own usage. We'd
> > > > > > > like your take on how this approach relates to our
> > > > > > > commitment to not break userspace.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > For this discussion, we are specifically referring to
> > > > > > > ACPI PNP0C14 WMI devices, consisting of a GUID and a set
> > > > > > > of methods and events, as well as a precompiled
> > > > > > > intermediate description of the methods and arguments
> > > > > > > (MOF). Exposed to userspace, these methods provide for
> > > > > > > BIOS interaction and are used for system management as
> > > > > > > well as LEDs, hot keys, radio switches, etc. There is
> > > > > > > vendor interest in achieving feature parity with Windows
> > > > > > > by exposing WMI methods to userspace for system
> > > > > > > management.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > While it appears WMI intended to be accessed from
> > > > > > > userspace, we have made use of it in the kernel to
> > > > > > > support various laptop features by connecting the WMI
> > > > > > > methods to other subsystems, notably input, leds, and
> > > > > > > rfkill [2]. The challenge is continuing to use WMI for
> > > > > > > these platform features, while allowing userspace to use
> > > > > > > it for system management tasks. Unfortunately, the WMI
> > > > > > > methods are not guaranteed to be split up along granular
> > > > > > > functional lines, and we will certainly face situations
> > > > > > > where the same GUID::METHOD_ID will be needed for a
> > > > > > > kernel feature (say LED support) as well as a system
> > > > > > > management task.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > To address this, I have proposed [3] that exporting WMI
> > > > > > > be opt-in, only done at the request of and in
> > > > > > > collaboration with a vendor, with the kernel platform
> > > > > > > driver given the opportunity to filter requests. This
> > > > > > > filtering would need to be at the method and argument
> > > > > > > inspection level, such as checking for specific bits in
> > > > > > > the input buffer, and rejecting the request if they
> > > > > > > conflict with an in kernel usage (that's worst case, in
> > > > > > > some cases just GUID or method ID could be sufficient).
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Because the kernel and the platform drivers are under
> > > > > > > continual development, and new systems appear regularly,
> > > > > > > we will encounter necessary changes to the platform
> > > > > > > driver WMI request filters. These changes could be
> > > > > > > considered a change to the kernel provided WMI interface
> > > > > > > to userspace. For example, we could regularly accept a
> > > > > > > call to
> > > > > > > $GUID::$METHOD_ID with bit 4 of the buffer set, and later
> > > > > > > deny the call when we determine it interferes with kernel
> > > > > > > usage.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In your view, is it acceptable to provide a chardev
> > > > > > > interface, for example, exposing WMI methods to
> > > > > > > userspace, with the understanding that the kernel may
> > > > > > > choose to filter certain requests which conflict with
> > > > > > > its own use? And that this filtering may change as new
> > > > > > > features are added to the platform drivers?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So, for example, if a new driver for a "brightness key"
> > > > > > were added to the kernel, all of a sudden the "raw" access
> > > > > > to the wmi data through the chardev would filtered away by
> > > > > > the kernel and not seen by userspace?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Why would you want to do that?  What's wrong with providing
> > > > > > "raw" access through a chardev, and the current in-kernel
> > > > > > access as well at the same time?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I don't really understand what would "break" over time
> > > > > > here.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Just a bump now that we're out of the merge window in case
> > > > > either Greg or Linus care to follow up with the responses to
> > > > > this.
> > > > > 
> > > > > To Greg's last point - any kernel state that is built up in
> > > > > conjunction with the WMI interface could be invalidated by a
> > > > > userspace application. It may or may not be recoverable,
> > > > > depending on the WMI implementation. This would be true for
> > > > > multiple WMI userspace applications as well, and I suppose
> > > > > the question is, do we defend the kernel drivers against
> > > > > this, or do we consider the kernel drivers on equal footing
> > > > > with WMI applications, and say "don't do that then" when
> > > > > some combination of apps and drivers don't play well
> > > > > together?
> > > > 
> > > > In the end, this shouldn't really matter, as long as nothing
> > > > breaks
> > 
> > I have one objection here:
> > 
> > If two userspace applications start to fight and use one WMI device
> > at same time, then it is their (userspace) problem. In any case
> > (how their userspace fight finish) it does not affect kernel nor
> > kernel drivers.
> > 
> > But once some "wrong" or "broken" userspace application starts to
> > fight with kernel WMI driver and kernel driver depends on internal
> > WMI state, then such application can cause problems to that kernel
> > driver.
> > 
> > And we *must* avoid breakage of kernel drivers by just broken
> > userspace application. Such thing could be fatal for kernel and
> > could case problems in other kernel drivers (which depends on this
> > WMI kernel driver).
> > 
> > I think we cannot accept that some userspace application could use
> > some race condition in WMI/ACPI firmware to change internal state
> > of kernel WMI driver which could cause undefined behaviour of
> > kernel.
> 
> These are valid concerns in my opinion. They are, in part, of our own
> making (see below re userspace daemons and the mapping driver). I
> believe we are at the beginning of a fundamental shift in how we
> make use of WMI in the Linux world. There will be some rough patches
> with the pre-existing WMI drivers within the Linux kernel.
> 
> Admittedly, all of the dangerous corner cases are not evident - at
> least not to me. This is in part why I proposed we take the first
> step, and use something concrete to help expose such things.
> 
> > > > as far as a user notices.  And that's the key here, apis can
> > > > change, but if you do it in a way that breaks something, or
> > > > anyone notices, then it's not ok.
> > > > 
> > > > So I don't have a solid answer other than "good luck!" :)
> > > > 
> > > > greg k-h
> > > 
> > > Fair enough, thanks Greg.
> > > 
> > > To all involved. I propose we move forward with:
> > > 
> > > * Design the API
> > > 
> > >   - character device per WMI device
> > >   - calling convention
> > >   - platform proof of concept
> > > 
> > > Let's see this in practice. I hope this proves the point that we
> > > do not have to filter these interfaces, since there is no clean
> > > way to do this, and the kernel module is arguably no more valid
> > > a user of WMI than a userspace application (perhaps less so
> > > given the intent of the vendor and the mechanism itself).
> > 
> > What do you mean that kernel is no more valid user of WMI? We still
> > have a couple of WMI drivers and without correct functionality of
> > them, lot of notebooks would less usable for ordinary users.
> 
> Perhaps a poor choice of wording on my part. My point was just that
> for a system like WMI, which was designed to expose firmware control
> to userspace, it is inconsistent with the intent of the mechanism to
> grant the Linux kernel a position of higher importance than that of
> a userspace management application.

One thing is design of some system, another thing is real usage. We know 
that WMI is used for reporting events when some keys are pressed (e.g. 
Fn keys) or used for enabling/disabling of radio devices or controlling 
keyboard/LID backlight. All those parts are in Linux world handled by 
kernel (not userspace) and therefore WMI needs to be handled in Linux 
kernel.

If other operating systems implements above parts of functionality in 
userspace and based on this fact was WMI designed, then it is not fully 
relevant argument for Linux.

And if we need to ensure correctly functionality of kernel drivers, then 
I think Linux kernel has a position with higher importance as some 
userspace application.

But it does not mean we cannot or do not want export other functionality 
to userspace. Just I still think we should be careful when some 3rd 
party firmware code which running in kernel mode (=ACPI-WMI bytecode) is 
going to be accessed by more users (both kernel drivers and userspace 
applications).

And filter layer which will accept only WMI calls which are safe for 
currently loaded/used kernel modules seems like a sane idea to ensure 
functionality of kernel plus allow userspace to do other things.

> Arguably, implementing platform support with WMI through Linux kernel
> modules slows platform support as it is hindered by the barrier to
> entry and the kernel's release process - while a generic WMI

But we can say mainline kernel has better code quality as some random 
closed source 3rd vendor application.

If we look in Microsoft Windows world (where that WMI is used a lot), we 
have there for function X specific application from each notebook 
vendor. And all those applications which doing function X are 
incompatible and every one locked for particular notebook model.

So I'm not sure if this is right way.

> interface to userspace can be readily used to write userspace
> drivers for these features. Obviously, there are still some gaps
> with interaction with other subsystems.
> 
> WMI may prove to be another one of those subsystems where userspace
> drivers facilitate faster innovation and platform enabling. This
> also helps reduce the dead code we build up in the kernel supporting
> devices with relatively short lifespans.
> 
> > I still think we need to some some filtering. Kernel and kernel
> > modules must not be confused by some random userspace application.
> 
> Keep in mind that WMI access will be a privileged operation, and I
> don't think characterizing these as "random userspace applications"
> is any more valid than "random kernel modules".

Kernel modules (which do not taint kernel) comes with kernel itself. 
They are well known and basically are part of kernel code.

Userspace applications, and if we are talking about WMI, would be 
probably 3rd party vendor closed-source binaries compiled for one or two 
specific Linux distributions. For me it is just "random userspace 
application" which I do not thing that would be preinstalled or part of 
Linux distributions, like it is for coreutils or X Server today.

> In hindsight, I suspect implementing more than the mapping driver in
> kernel space will prove to have been a mistake. I understand why we
> did it, and why that precedent expanded as it has, but at speed and
> scale, the support these drivers provide would probably have been
> better implemented as userspace platform daemons using the WMI
> interfaces.
> 
> > Question about API:
> > 
> > Are we going to export low-level ACPI methods? Or are we going to
> > implement BMOF parser in kernel and export high-level
> > class/function API to userspace with validation of input
> > parameters in kernel (to prevent passing garbage from userspace to
> > ACPI-WMI) like it is on Windows?
> 
> What we have discussed to date is exposing each WMI device as a
> character device. Userspace would select the method and pass a
> buffer formatted per the information provided by a userspace BMOF
> parser. This is consistent with the design goals of WMI, per the
> documentation. Specifically, that the mapping driver does not have
> any specific knowledge about the WMI GUIDs or methods.

Ok.

-- 
Pali Rohár
pali.rohar@...il.com

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