Message-ID: <CAFA6WYO5r66VqdczFH4HC1O=DuuauQBohr80zPLA86rnHgC48Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Mon, 6 Feb 2023 16:41:47 +0530
From:   Sumit Garg <sumit.garg@...aro.org>
To:     Ard Biesheuvel <ardb@...nel.org>
Cc:     Jens Wiklander <jens.wiklander@...aro.org>,
        Masahisa Kojima <masahisa.kojima@...aro.org>,
        linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, op-tee@...ts.trustedfirmware.org,
        Ilias Apalodimas <ilias.apalodimas@...aro.org>,
        Johan Hovold <johan+linaro@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 0/2] introduce op-tee based EFI Runtime Variable Service

Thanks Ard for the detailed background information.

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 at 14:52, Ard Biesheuvel <ardb@...nel.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 at 07:44, Sumit Garg <sumit.garg@...aro.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 at 16:25, Jens Wiklander <jens.wiklander@...aro.org> wrote:
> > >
> ..
> > > StMM uses the MM protocol. It was originially using raw SMCs as a
> > > conduit, but with the need for OP-TEE accessing RPMB that's not usable.
> > > So instead we use OP-TEE MSG as a conduit. Seen from that perspective
> > > we're only resuing something established instead of inventing something
> > > new.
> >
> > Aren't we already adding PTA_STMM?
> >
> > Isn't the StMM specific to Arm as you already mentioned it was
> > designed to specifically use raw SMCs? So if in future AMD TEE wants
> > to implement EFI services, can we suggest they reuse the MM interface?
> >
> > I am not sure why we need to redirect EFI variables via MM interface
> > communication buffers rather than directly using the TEE shared memory
> > approach.
> >
> > Ard,
> >
> > Since you have better insights into how EFI runtime services have to
> > be implemented, can you share your opinion here? It may be something I
> > am missing here.
> >
>
> Hello Sumit,
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you are asking me here. Allow me to
> reiterate, apologies if I am stating the obvious:
>
> The EFI spec describes how the OS should expose the EFI runtime
> services, but this is difficult to implement when access to the
> underlying storage requires arbitration between accesses by the OS
> itself and accesses made by the firmware.

Agree.

>
> On systems where this issue is absent, the EFI runtime service
> implementation for the variable services are very thin wrappers around
> calls into standalone MM, which are not standardized, but are also not
> ARM specific (standalone MM is being used on other architectures as
> well, and 'classic' SMM uses the same protocol but dispatches the call
> into the secure/SMM world in a different way)
>

Thanks for the clarification. So wouldn't it be better to have the
standalone MM API reside here: drivers/firmware/efi/ and it should be
exposed instead of efivars ops? As you mention below that there is
nothing OP-TEE specific in there.

> On systems where arbitration is needed, the standalone MM payload
> needs to call back up into the OS to request access to the flash
> storage. OP-TEE is a suitable vehicle for this, as it already does the
> same thing for other reasons, and is already set up to dispatch SMC
> calls that are taken to S-EL1.

Agree.

>
> All of his is uncharted territory as far as the EFI spec is concerned,
> as it occurs inside the StMM pseudo-API call, which itself normally
> occurs inside the EFI runtime service call. Given that we cannot use
> the latter (as the firmware does not provide a working get/setvariable
> at OS runtime [0]), we need to provide some plumbing to call the StMM
> pseudo-API directly, and expose it as an alternative efivars
> implementation. (Note that this should mean that other implementations
> of the StMM pseudo-API that do not require this arbitration may
> potentially be accessed in the same way, although I don't see a reason
> to use it like that.)
>
> If I am understanding you correctly, your question is whether OP-TEE
> should expose the StMM pseudo-API in the usual way as well, and make
> the OS rely on the usual discovery mechanisms etc to bind to it?

No, I am trying to understand and generalize how an EFI runtime
service ABI would look like among Linux kernel and a TEE. As you may
be aware there are multiple TEE implementations and OP-TEE is one of
them. So we should try to have a generic TEE client driver [1] rather
than every other TEE implementation coming up with its own driver.

>
> If that is indeed your question: what purpose would that serve,
> exactly?

> In principle, the OS piece that implements efivars on top of
> the StMM pseudo-API should not be specific to any TEE implementation
> or API, and I think the fact that OP-TEE is the provider in this case
> is an implementation detail.

Yeah as I said above we should abstract the StMM pieces out of an
OP-TEE driver and then the driver can be a generic TEE client driver
which is just providing the underline vehicle (invoke commands and
StMM buffer passing) as you described above.

>
> If you feel that OP-TEE should not expose this interface directly to
> begin with, and rely on some marshalling layer to expose the StMM
> pseudo-API on top of its ordinary exposed API, that is really an
> OP-TEE internal matter (which I think is what you discussed with Jens
> up in the thread?) Since StMM calls are defined in terms of SMC
> instructions + arguments, this would require more code inside OP-TEE
> to translate access to an API that it already exposes directly as
> well, so I'm not sure what the gain would be.

No I am not against OP-TEE exposing StMM stuff but rather the StMM
stuff (buffer allocation etc.) being bundled into OP-TEE client
driver.

>
> The thing to remember is that, even though the wrappers are very thin,
> it is fundamentally the StMM API that is being exposed, not the EFI
> runtime services API, and so whether or not a use case may materialize
> that wants to expose a different API via efivars is out of scope here,
> even if they are roughly shaped like get/setvariable.
>

Okay I get your point. If we want the StMM API to be exposed then I
think the EFI subsystem is the suitable place for that.

[1] Although there can be minor differences allowed based on TEE
implementation ID. You can consider it analogous to how we use
multiple DT compatibles for a generic platform driver.

-Sumit

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