Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 16:16:41 -0700
From: James Houghton <jthoughton@...gle.com>
To: Sean Christopherson <seanjc@...gle.com>
Cc: Yu Zhao <yuzhao@...gle.com>, Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>, 
	Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@...hat.com>, Albert Ou <aou@...s.berkeley.edu>, 
	Ankit Agrawal <ankita@...dia.com>, Anup Patel <anup@...infault.org>, 
	Atish Patra <atishp@...shpatra.org>, Axel Rasmussen <axelrasmussen@...gle.com>, 
	Bibo Mao <maobibo@...ngson.cn>, Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>, 
	David Matlack <dmatlack@...gle.com>, David Rientjes <rientjes@...gle.com>, 
	Huacai Chen <chenhuacai@...nel.org>, James Morse <james.morse@....com>, 
	Jonathan Corbet <corbet@....net>, Marc Zyngier <maz@...nel.org>, Michael Ellerman <mpe@...erman.id.au>, 
	Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@...il.com>, Oliver Upton <oliver.upton@...ux.dev>, 
	Palmer Dabbelt <palmer@...belt.com>, Paul Walmsley <paul.walmsley@...ive.com>, 
	Raghavendra Rao Ananta <rananta@...gle.com>, Ryan Roberts <ryan.roberts@....com>, 
	Shaoqin Huang <shahuang@...hat.com>, Shuah Khan <shuah@...nel.org>, 
	Suzuki K Poulose <suzuki.poulose@....com>, Tianrui Zhao <zhaotianrui@...ngson.cn>, 
	Will Deacon <will@...nel.org>, Zenghui Yu <yuzenghui@...wei.com>, kvm-riscv@...ts.infradead.org, 
	kvm@...r.kernel.org, kvmarm@...ts.linux.dev, 
	linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org, linux-doc@...r.kernel.org, 
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-kselftest@...r.kernel.org, 
	linux-mips@...r.kernel.org, linux-mm@...ck.org, 
	linux-riscv@...ts.infradead.org, linuxppc-dev@...ts.ozlabs.org, 
	loongarch@...ts.linux.dev
Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 2/7] mm: multi-gen LRU: Have secondary MMUs participate
 in aging

On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 4:03 PM Sean Christopherson <seanjc@...gle.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 03, 2024, James Houghton wrote:
> > On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 11:06 PM Yu Zhao <yuzhao@...gle.com> wrote:
> > > What I don't think is acceptable is simplifying those optimizations
> > > out without documenting your justifications (I would even call it a
> > > design change, rather than simplification, from v3 to v4).
> >
> > I'll put back something similar to what you had before (like a
> > test_clear_young() with a "fast" parameter instead of "bitmap"). I
> > like the idea of having a new mmu notifier, like
> > fast_test_clear_young(), while leaving test_young() and clear_young()
> > unchanged (where "fast" means "prioritize speed over accuracy").
>
> Those two statements are contradicting each other, aren't they?

I guess it depends on how you define "similar". :)

> Anyways, I vote
> for a "fast only" variant, e.g. test_clear_young_fast_only() or so.  gup() has
> already established that terminology in mm/, so hopefully it would be familiar
> to readers.  We could pass a param, but then the MGLRU code would likely end up
> doing a bunch of useless indirect calls into secondary MMUs, whereas a dedicated
> hook allows implementations to nullify the pointer if the API isn't supported
> for whatever reason.
>
> And pulling in Oliver's comments about locking, I think it's important that the
> mmu_notifier API express it's requirement that the operation be "fast", not that
> it be lockless.  E.g. if a secondary MMU can guarantee that a lock will be
> contented only in rare, slow cases, then taking a lock is a-ok.  Or a secondary
> MMU could do try-lock and bail if the lock is contended.
>
> That way KVM can honor the intent of the API with an implementation that works
> best for KVM _and_ for MGRLU.  I'm sure there will be future adjustments and fixes,
> but that's just more motivation for using something like "fast only" instead of
> "lockless".

Yes, thanks, this is exactly what I meant. I really should have "only"
in the name to signify that it is a requirement that it be fast.
Thanks for wording it so clearly.

>
> > > > I made this logic change as part of removing batching.
> > > >
> > > > I'd really appreciate guidance on what the correct thing to do is.
> > > >
> > > > In my mind, what would work great is: by default, do aging exactly
> > > > when KVM can do it locklessly, and then have a Kconfig to always have
> > > > MGLRU to do aging with KVM if a user really cares about proactive
> > > > reclaim (when the feature bit is set). The selftest can check the
> > > > Kconfig + feature bit to know for sure if aging will be done.
> > >
> > > I still don't see how that Kconfig helps. Or why the new static branch
> > > isn't enough?
> >
> > Without a special Kconfig, the feature bit just tells us that aging
> > with KVM is possible, not that it will necessarily be done. For the
> > self-test, it'd be good to know exactly when aging is being done or
> > not, so having a Kconfig like LRU_GEN_ALWAYS_WALK_SECONDARY_MMU would
> > help make the self-test set the right expectations for aging.
> >
> > The Kconfig would also allow a user to know that, no matter what,
> > we're going to get correct age data for VMs, even if, say, we're using
> > the shadow MMU.
>
> Heh, unless KVM flushes, you won't get "correct" age data.
>
> > This is somewhat important for me/Google Cloud. Is that reasonable? Maybe
> > there's a better solution.
>
> Hmm, no?  There's no reason to use a Kconfig, e.g. if we _really_ want to prioritize
> accuracy over speed, then a KVM (x86?) module param to have KVM walk nested TDP
> page tables would give us what we want.
>
> But before we do that, I think we need to perform due dilegence (or provide data)
> showing that having KVM take mmu_lock for write in the "fast only" API provides
> better total behavior.  I.e. that the additional accuracy is indeed worth the cost.

That sounds good to me. I'll drop the Kconfig. I'm not really sure
what to do about the self-test, but that's not really all that
important.

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