Date:   Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:45:04 -0500
From:   "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
To:     Jason Wang <jasowang@...hat.com>
Cc:     netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: thoughts stac/clac and get user for vhost

On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 02:54:19PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> 
> On 2019/1/7 下午1:42, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 12:26:51PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > On 2019/1/5 上午5:25, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 11:25:14AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > On 2018/12/31 上午2:40, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 05:55:52PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2018/12/26 下午11:06, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 12:03:50PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 2018/12/26 上午12:41, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > I was just wondering: packed ring batches things naturally.
> > > > > > > > > > E.g.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > user_access_begin
> > > > > > > > > > check descriptor valid
> > > > > > > > > > smp_rmb
> > > > > > > > > > copy descriptor
> > > > > > > > > > user_access_end
> > > > > > > > > But without speculation on the descriptor (which may only work for in-order
> > > > > > > > > or even a violation of spec). Only one two access of a single descriptor
> > > > > > > > > could be batched. For split ring, we can batch more since we know how many
> > > > > > > > > descriptors is pending. (avail_idx - last_avail_idx).
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Anything I miss?
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > just check more descriptors in a loop:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >      user_access_begin
> > > > > > > >      for (i = 0; i < 16; ++i) {
> > > > > > > > 	 if (!descriptor valid)
> > > > > > > > 		break;
> > > > > > > > 	 smp_rmb
> > > > > > > > 	 copy descriptor
> > > > > > > >      }
> > > > > > > >      user_access_end
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > you don't really need to know how many there are
> > > > > > > > ahead of the time as you still copy them 1 by one.
> > > > > > > So let's see the case of split ring
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > user_access_begin
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > n = avail_idx - last_avail_idx (1)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > n = MIN(n, 16)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > smp_rmb
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > read n entries from avail_ring (2)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > for (i =0; i <n; i++)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >        copy descriptor (3)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > user_access_end
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Consider for the case of heavy workload. So for packed ring, we have 32
> > > > > > > times of userspace access and 16 times of smp_rmb()
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > For split ring we have
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > (1) 1 time
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > (2) 2 times at most
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > (3) 16 times
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 19 times of userspace access and 1 times of smp_rmb(). In fact 2 could be
> > > > > > > eliminated with in order. 3 could be batched completely with in order and
> > > > > > > partially when out of order.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I don't see how packed ring help here especially consider lfence on x86 is
> > > > > > > more than memory fence, it prevents speculation in fact.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > So on x86 at least RMB is free, this is why I never bothered optimizing
> > > > > > it out. Is smp_rmb still worth optimizing out for ARM? Does it cost
> > > > > > more than the extra indirection in the split ring?
> > > > > I don't know, but obviously, RMB has a chance to damage the performance more
> > > > > or less. But even on arch where the RMB is free, packed ring still does not
> > > > > show obvious advantage.
> > > > People do measure gains with a PMD on host+guest.
> > > > So it's a question of optimizing the packed ring implementation in Linux.
> > > 
> > > Well, 2%-3% difference is not quite a lot.
> > People reported a 10% gain with tiny packets, others reported more.
> 
> 
> Good to know this, any pointer. 2%-3% is the number I got from Jens' cover
> letter.

Oh interesting.  Also Jens' cover letter only from an earlier version,
Jan 29. What happened between these two dates I don't know, worth
investigating.

> 
> > 
> > Again, packed ring is faster sometimes by a factor of 3x but
> > virtio is just virtio, there's a lot going on besides
> > just passing the buffer addresses guest to host,
> > and a different ring layout won't help with that.
> > 
> > 
> > > I think it's not hard to let split ring faster have some small optimizations
> > > on the code itself.
> > > 
> > > Thanks
> > Speed up the split ring support in virtio pmd in dpdk? There have been
> > several people working on that for a while now. It seems more likely
> > that we can speed up the newer packed ring code.  E.g. things like
> > prefetch have a much better chance to work will with the packed layout,
> > with split one it was a wash IIRC.
> 
> 
> But what happen when in order is implemented for packed ring?
> 
> I post a patch that increase 10% of PPS with less than 10 lines of code for
> vhost (bypass the avail ring reading). I have similar patch for dpdk but
> just don't have time to test it. Similar optimization could be applied to
> used ring for TX easily.
> 
> Thanks

Oh I have no doubt we can speed things up with interface extensions.


> 
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > But my point was really fundamental - if ring accesses are expensive
> > > > > > then we should batch them.
> > > > > I don't object the batching, the reason that they are expensive could be:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1) unnecessary overhead caused by speculation barrier and check likes SMAP
> > > > > 2) cache contention
> > > > > 
> > > > > So it does not conflict with the effort that I did to remove 1). My plan is:
> > > > > for metadata, try to eliminate all the 1) completely. For data, we can do
> > > > > batch copying to amortize its effort. For avail/descriptor batching, we can
> > > > > try to it on top.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > >     Right now we have an API that gets
> > > > > > an iovec directly. That limits the optimizations you can do.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The translation works like this:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ring -> valid descriptors -> iovecs
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We should have APIs for each step that work in batches.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > Yes.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > So packed layout should show the gain with this approach.
> > > > > > > > > > That could be motivation enough to finally enable vhost packed ring
> > > > > > > > > > support.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > > > > > > 

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